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DavidO asked about a pictre of Mike Doolin's side bender in Sylvan's post on his Fox bender revision.

I figured it would be better to start a new thread on the Doolin bender rather than litter Sylvan's Fox bender thread with something a little off topic.

Here's a picture of Mike's side bender off his web site.



And here's a picture of the bender I made based on Mike's web site instructions.



And here's a link that I posted back in November 06 on my version of Mike Doolin's side bender, Rod True's, Doolin style side bender. There is a link about 3/4 of the way down the the thread to Mikes web site and his instructions, but this will be faster

Although not a regular contributor here, Mike showed up in the thread to give a few suggestions too.

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Rod - Thanks for sharing this again.  I plan on building a bender soon and was not looking forward to the complexity of the Fox styles.  After watching the 'Factory Friday" series on Taylor's site I think this is the closest thing to what they do even tho the lower bout is bent first here but the waist is done first at Taylor.

They use a notch in the side to index placement at the waist.  Do you do something similar?  How do you deal with different shapes and cutaways with this bender?

Thanks,

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Also, I forgot to ask about the temp probe.  What, where and how much and how do you use it?  Looks like the probe cord is wrapped around the front with the probe ready to use.

Thanks again,

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

With this style, I like being able to index the side's position in the bender at the tail, rather than the waist.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Thanks Rod,

This couldn't have been posted at a better time for me. I'm getting ready to build a bender.

Thanks Again for your input.

Peter

Steve, the beauty of this design is that you reference the side off the tail end.

If you look at this picture, you see a pencil line on the bending form. That is the centerline of the body. I just lower the end of the side to that mark, clamp it in tight and start the bend.



I made the base of the bender to be able to take the smallest body length I currently build (which is 19 1/2"). The bending form only rests on top of the base (locater pins hold it in place) so I can just take off one form and put on another of a different size.

As for cutaways, I don't personally like Venetian cutaways and only make florentine cutaways so I don't have to worry about incorporating that into the bend.

As for the temperature prob and thermometer. I got it at Wal Mart, cost was about $15, look in the home appliance section near the toasters etc. I got this one for the very reason you see in the picture, I liked the idea of leaving the thermometer on the base and just putting the prob into the bending form. I have cut a small groove in one of the support bars just at the surface of the form and the prob goes in there once I start bending. Before that, it goes into the "sandwich" on top of the wood so I know when I can load the bender and start to bend.

One other thing that is different about my bender vs Mike's is that I don't use solid bending forms. My forms only have the sides and have support bars that run between the sides, see the screws, those hold the support bars to the sides.

I wonder if having an open bending form helps to dissipate the heat a little quicker vs a solid bending form. Seems to me that it would, and I wonder if this helps with the bending cycle at all. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Mine is like that except that I use springs on the bout hold-downs.




Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Rod - WalMart?  I didn't know they were a Luthier supplier....  Just kidding. 

I can see putting the probe between the bands, heater strip and wood before beginning the bend.  Do the grooves for the probe in the support bars get the probe underneath the stack in different places?

Thanks for the answers.

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

I love to get "tools" and what not from places like Wal-Mart, they have the best prices just waiting for my local Wal-Mart to start stocking BRW

They say a picture says 1000 words so I'll include another picture for you Steve

I only have one groove in one of the support bars for getting the probe under the "sandwich" or stack as you've called it. This is really to make sure that I don't over heat the wood while bending.

Here is a mock-up for you

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Has anyone done a venitian cutaway on one of these. I talked to Mike about it but he only builds florinitine as well.
My though process says that if you bend the lower bout, then upper bout then waist then when it's all tight drive down a caul into the cutaway valley much like the Fox bender. But with the advantage that all of the slats are being held tightly to the base.
Does this make sense?

[QUOTE=old man] Mine is like that except that I use springs on the bout hold-downs.




Ron[/QUOTE]

No offense Ron but your bender is not the same as the Doolin Bender. The Doolin bender uses the springs to hold the slats really really tight so the wood is supported on both sides through the entire bend. With the Fox style the wood is only supported on the inside of the waist because of the waist clamping caul design, and your style of bender doesn't support the wood under the waist at all (from the look of it anyway). And both the Fox and your bender require you to support the wood when bending the upper and lower bouts or at least the hold downs give some support but not the same as the tightly stretched spring steel slats like the Doolin bender.

I'm not saying that the Doolin bender is the best bender out there, but for me, it's fool proof enough that I just had to make one. After breaking 2 sets of Imbuia and one set of flame maple on my previous bender (similar to yours) I had to try something different.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

You know Paul, that might just work. You'd have to have some serious clamps for the tension springs or still have enough travel in them in order to move the side that much though.

I think it could be done if the base and tensioning springs were designed and sized right.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod - I get the picture!!!!!!!  Pun intended.  I must be reading a lot of Heshisms.

Thanks again

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Rod - I went to the Mart tonight and found the only digital thermometer they had with the wired probe.  It is a meat thermometer that is used (normaly) at less than 200 deg F.  I have'nt opened it yet.  It looked like you can use it on "the barbie" as Kim Larkin would say. 

I am going to try their website to see if they list a max temp.  If I have read correctley bending is done between 240 F to 300 F.  Is your thermometer similar?

Thanks,

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] Has anyone done a venitian cutaway on one of these.
I talked to Mike about it but he only builds florinitine as well.
My though process says that if you bend the lower bout, then upper bout
then waist then when it's all tight drive down a caul into the cutaway
valley much like the Fox bender. But with the advantage that all of the
slats are being held tightly to the base.
Does this make sense?[/QUOTE]

I'm thinking of going this way also Paul. And I plan on a few cutaways in
the Venetian style. The first guitar that I am STILL working on (binding
channels are cut now...YI HAAA!!) is a venetian cutaway that I bent on my
fox style bender. THe problem with this design as it sits here is that on
ventian cutaways you the neck end of the side to be paralell to the
bottom of the form, not perpendicular. So some adjustments in the
design will be required. Another option is save your fox bender for the
cutaway side, although that would mean another blanket...although I bent
mine with bulbs on the first try. Tell you what, I am making solid forms
right now to bend bindings so I might make this bender at the same time,
so that would be the time to figure this out. I will post progress (I am
slow though....wood processing mostly these days) and if you get at it
please keep us in the loop!

Shane

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Canada

Shane good to see you around Dude    How's the water situation up there? Staying dry up at your place I'm sure.

Steve, the thermometer that I got is good up to 400*F (that's some very well done cow or turkey if you ask me) but that's what we need right, something that is good to at least 310*F. You'll want to find one that goes at least to 300*F preferably a little bit higher.

There are other digital thermometers that are all one piece, I remember Serge posted a picture once with his but trying to find that would be like the proverbial needle in a haystack search.

I also remember Hesh's hide glue tutorial where he showed pictures with his digital thermometer in the hot pot (sounds kind of fun eh )

Here are two pictures of Hesh's digital thermometer. Shows in the second picture the brand, model # and the temperature range. Looks like it would be good.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

We have stops at the butt of our Doolin-style benders so we don't have to even think about where the butt of the side goes.

That's a really good idea Rick, I'll have to figure out a way to add a stop in mine. I'm thinking that adding a second piece of aluminum that is cut to the right height should do the trick. Thanks

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Thanks everyone for helping me out. 

I was thinking about a stop as well, but, how do you keep the side from creeping as you bend the "sandwich".  Friction alone may not be enough.  Could you notch the edge of the side (like Taylor does) and confine the wood at the end/lower bout joint.  Or, is it not a problem with the "sandwich?"

http://www.taylorguitars.com/see-hear/

Steve

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Rod - I'm sure the temp range on Hesh's thermometer did not escape you in the pics.  Maximum of 302 F.  I'm wondering if the accuracy drops off after that.

Steve

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

If you tighten up really well at the butt end, then pull your lower bout bend, put the waist bar in fairly lightly, pull down the upper bout loosely, go back and tighten up the waist, and then do the upper bout, you won't have significant creep of the butt end.   It works for us.

Rick, what do you guys do for cutaways?

Hi Rick, I have the same question as Paul. What are you guys doing about
venetian cutaways with this bender. I think that I have an idea that will work
but re-inventing the wheel on things like this is not always the best use of
limited time. Is there a pic of the set-up you have posted somewhere?

Thanks in advance!

Shane

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Canada

We're still doing the cutaways on a Fox, but there's no reason why adding the Fox cutaway press to the Doolin wouldn't work just fine. In that case, we'd tighten the butt, then the waist, and then go in with the cutaway, maybe even with springs pulling the slats out horizontally instead of down vertically.

Thanks Rick. That is the modification I was thinking about. So I guess I will
do it and try it. If it works (can't see why it won't) I will post pics.

Shane

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Canada