Official Luthiers Forum!

Does anyone have one of these? Looks like a cheap way to enter the world of CNC. Oops, maybe this thread belongs in the CNC forum. Sorry moderators, feel free to move it if necessary.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Tim, I looked at one when they first came out. I think you would be GREATLY disappointed. It only has (if I remember correctly) 1/2" Z axis travel. So that would pretty much rule out anything but inlay work for a guitar. And it doesn't spin fast enough for inlay work.
It's pretty much made for sign makers (small signs at that).

I read a pretty in depth evaluation of it in one of the wood working journals and they ultimately got it to work, but it had its frustrations.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I agree with the others regarding the compucarve

I think for a good, quality, entry level machine you should check out K2 (www.k2cnc.com). I've had one for about 8 months and have been very happy with it. Feel free to let me know if you have any questions I can help you out with.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I would be interestecd to know what you do with yours. Also. how hard is it to design inlay work with the CAD/CAM software, which software do you use and reccomend, do you use it for fretwork? How hard is that to program and make?

It seems like alot of these companies make the tables, THEN they tell you that you have to buy stepper moters and then electronics packages and somebody else's software to run it all. NOPE, aint gonna happen....! I would buy one of these if I can find a company that sells it ALL at a reasonable price. I think this is what is so attractive with the compucarve machine.

The only thing I would want one for is doing inlays and cutting fret slots and maybe... just maybe rough carving a neck blank.

I have a ton of questions

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Reguards,

Ken H

I bought the plans for a Rockcliff DIY CNC machine. Basically you build the machine and buy the steppers and driver. Looks like a easy entry into CNC. You can also make the table a bit longer so that it can handle necks.

I want it for the same sort of jobs you want to do, and so far it looks pretty good, at least the plans and positive feedback do. I haven't started mine yet too many irons in the fire at the moment.

I was going to post about it in the CNC forum but there doesn't seem to be much going on there.

Ken -
My partner and I are in the process of developing a complete, turnkey
operation for a small CNC machine. It will be sold with predrawn parts
such as a pyramid bridge, etc. Exact instructions on how to do it will be
included. Bits needed will be included. Everything in one package! You
will be able to cut a bridge the first day (I did). Because its' cutting area is
not real big, it will not cut a complete neck but is perfect for inlay work,
making bridges, and inlaying fingerboards. Perhaps one of its' most
useful features is the ability to precisely make jigs and fixtures with .001"
tolerances. For a sample of the inlay work done on this setup see my
website Wells logo into the pine HomeDepaul guitar. Tolerance is .001".
Hopefully, the entire setup will be less than $5,000.00. If you are
interested keep an eye on www.cncguitar.com. We are hoping to have the
entire package ready to go in the next few months!

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

Hey Sylvan... make sure you keep us in the loop on this.

I am interested in hearing more.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Sylvan,

Will you make the drawings and software available for folks like me who are already building a cnc, or who already own one? What are the software products? Will this have a spindle, or use a router, or something else?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I am definitely interested Sylvan! Please keep me in the loop when it is ready. I am definitely in this business for the long haul, so an investment in a quality tool is not out of the question. I just want to know that I am buying a turn key operation. Knowing that whoever built it understands what I will be doing with it and what I am expecting out of the machine is a BIG plus too!

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Reguards,

Ken H

That's great news Sylvan. I am interested as well but I would need the additional size and capacity to carve necks. That is one of the biggest hurdles for me now is necks and I see CNC as a way to shave several hours off of neck time. Yes, it is fun, relazing, spiritual, yada, yada, yada, carving a neck BUT a CNC would be a great help in repetetive neck duplications. Thanks for thinking of us.

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

First I should say that I have been using CAD for the last 15 years...so I am much better at CAD than I am with a chisel.

I use Rhino and Rhino CAM as my CAD/CAM package. I'm pretty familiar with this type of software and I can confidently say that this is the best deal going. Rhino CAD is very capable of doing 3D surfaces, and the basic Rhino CAM package gives you all the CAM tools you need to get started. I think total cost for both was like 1500.

The best way to cut fret slots is with a saw blade. I can and have cut fret slots with a .024 diameter end mill, but it is slow work since the bit is so small (and easy to break).

Overall, the K2 is very accurate. I would say that it is repeatable within .002". This makes it very well suited for inlay work. I do not like the tool holder/collet device that K2 sells you for small bits. This thing is out like .007"...!

If you can do a rough neck carve with CAD/CAM/CNC then you can do a finished neck carve. It's just a matter of setting your stepover to give you the finish level that you need. I've done neck carves as well as carved backs on my machine..wouldn't do it any other way. There's nothing like repeatability!

I'm in the process now of setting up some duck carving programs...I figure I'll run some traditional cork gunning decoys this winter.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

The machine I am using and we are trying to set up for luthiers is a
Roland MDX-20. It is about the size of a desktop printer. Cutting surface
is 8"x6"x2 1/2". The software that drives the machine accepts .stl files
from any draw program that exports .stl files. Don, we will not make the
original draw files available for sale. They will already be drawn and
imported into Roland's format and set up so they can immediately be
used make things. All of the hard part of CNC will already be done.
We will also be offering a service to custom draw your logo, etc. and send
you the files so you can cut your own logos as often and as many as you
like. The hope is, that once you buy the package, you will be up and
running for your own guitar making.
And of course, if you know how to use one of the 3D programs that
exports .stl files, you can draw your own!

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Sylvan
http://www.wellsguitars.com

Does Rhino export .stl files?

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I'm using a K2 3925 (39" x 25" x 8" envelope).

Just to throw it out there...I'm pretty confident that if I were to run neck production on this machine and fine tune the programs I could carve acoustic necks to a pretty good degree within 20 minutes..and certainly within 30.

This doesn't include all the pre-carve processing such as routing the truss rod channel, machining the headstock, etc. I setup my programs so that I can cut everything from a board. I also have a 12 degree jig that I setup for cutting consistent scarf joints.

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

rhino does pretty much all the normal formats - IGES, STL, DWG, DXF, STEP, etc..

For anyone who is even considering spending the money on a CNC, I would highly advise getting comfortable with CAD first. You can't cut anything you can't draw. If you find that you are comfortable with CAD, then it is a small step to go to CAM & CNC.

You can download Rhino for free to play around with...it will only let you save 25 times, but you can run it as much as you like as a trial. I'll have to post some information on how to model a neck carve in the CNC forum, if you guys would be interested in seeing it..

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Sylvan,

No offense, but a 6" x 8" cutting area is way too small for someone to drop $5000 into. A person would be better off buying bridges from StewMac, or John Watkins, and I think they will make that determination pretty quickly. As far as rosettes are concerned, well, I made a custom cutter for $15 to cut a 3-ring rosette, and anything fancier I guess someone could do by hand or with jigs. You need to provide "value", and for that kind of money, it just doesn't have it in my book. I will have less than that into my system, and it will have better than a 30" x 50" cutting area.
Yours isn't any bigger than the Sears version...the positive thing is the scanning capability though, but I don't see much use for it unless you're doing repair work and need to replace a bridge. Not trying to burst your bubble here...just pointing out the limitations.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Would be interesting to see the neck modeling in Rhino.

My job is very tied to the boating industry, and Rhino is THE software those folks rely on.
It's similar to how the Auto industry uses UGS, and others use Solidworks etc.
Different industries seem to gravitate toward specific software.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I'd be interested in seeing a neck model tutorial in Rhino.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Me too please. Not sure what I am looking at but it would be fun to see none the less ;)

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I'm short on time to do a tutorial of any sort, but the short version of my method is this:

You need these curves:
Complete side profile of neck
Curves defining fretboard from the top
Headstock face shape
Heel contour at the bottom of the neck
Heel contour at the bottom of the heel
Curves defining the taper of the heel
Neck contours at the start of the heel and 1st fret or so

From there, the operations which are your friends:
Sweep 2 Rails (neck shaft)
Network Surface (heel, headstock transition)
Blend Surface (to fill in the holes)

You'll also likely need to extend and trim some surfaces to get what you're after.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Here it is...

Rhino Neck Carve Tutorial

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Very interesting! Thanks!