Official Luthiers Forum!

The H-O design is definitely a clean solution and something I want to keep in mind.

Honestly I would run a broom in any one of your shops In order to get the fly on the wall view of your shop procedures and thought processes.

I had a Eko ranger once, talk about a tank! still miss It though.

this has helped refine things some, time to sketch some more.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

If I ever give up my freedom and work towards doing this for a living I would change my approach to working with proven designs rather than trying to borrow from them. If anyone has more bracing example to post I love looking and pondering them.

Thank again
            Kirby.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Al, if you relate that high main top resonant frequency to the equally high low-end cutoff frequency of the recording media and playback equipment of the first fifty or so years of the 20th century, you may have a raison d'etre there... Those guitars matched the recording gear...

Another thing you do not see in many vintage ladder braced guitars is any kind of overall shaping of the braces. There's no "parabolic" curve, and the tops are generally braced flat, not domed. So there's a lot of bracing where it doesn't do much good.

But here we go...off into modernizing the whole thing, and that may not be what the few folks who are looking for ladder braced guitars (as reliable vintage repros) are after.

As for myself, once I get a decent modernized repro of a Howe Orme done, I want to try "X" bracing one...

I used to use deepthroated clamps and concave cauls to make a cylindical arch on my tops. It was pretty easy.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Well, Dave, I guess for someone whose opinions you don't like too much, I have hit on some of the (perhaps) same and right things that you do to make ladder bracing work.

[/QUOTE]

Rick,

I have never said anywhere that "I don't like your opinions too much" - in fact when you came here I posted thanking you for your (and Mike Dollin's/Howard Klepper's) influence on my building. Can I take it from this response that you no longer think that "The biggest problem with ladder bracing that I see is that it takes a lot of it to keep the top from looking like a potato chip pretty quickly." which was the opinion I was querying?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=K.O.] Hi Dave W your red Kite is got me thinking about this a while ago and I still want to do a step top version for a mellower tone.

In my ham handed experiments re-topping cheapies (done a while ago) I did have the potato chip probs but my tops were flat. [/QUOTE]

Kirby,

I think that putting some arch in the top would help, but imho (and I've only built two) the area to concentrate on in the Weissenborn to stop this is from the sound hole upwards - particluarly as there is no neck block to help with the string pressure. Using a re-inforced soundhole and adapting the bracing under the end of the fretboard plus some use of cf bracing in the hollow neck was my response to this.

I now definitely have a ladder braced Weiss on the radar and maybe even a double necked version

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

[QUOTE=K.O.] . . . but I think I am also still trying to wrap my mind around how ladder braced guitars work.[/QUOTE]

Kirby,

Good luck - when you find out let me know

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Al, Always a pleasure to read your posts, but I’m not sure where the story of lute tops coming off regularly to be ironed flat originally came from. It’s certainly not true for the lutes in the three collections that I have access to and for whom I carry out the restoration work. Nor, have any of the curators or others I’ve asked in the field heard of it or experienced it. Maybe it’s one of those urban myths that no one knows the origin, but gain a life of their own.

Nor is it true for the many 18th and 19th century ladder braced guitars that I have handled and restored, they certainly weren’t potato chips, not necessarily still flat, but when repaired and re-glued within acceptable parameters.

True no instrument top will retain its original shape over the centuries, even X-braced pre-war Martins’ develop bulges and distort over time, I’ve got three.

However, what I see may be the result of the original build quality of the instruments concerned, as with anything the better quality ones will be looked after and survive, certainly they will need care and regular attention over the centuries, but their original builders understood their materials. Whereas, the cheaper end of the market, the cheap store bought guitars of the early 20th century for instance will deteriorate and be lost. These cheap US ladder braced guitars of the early 20th century cannot be compared to the earlier guitars and lutes, nor to the superb instruments made by builders like John How today, still the best sounding guitar I’ve heard on the forum.

No bracing system is perfect, they all have their problems which the builder will have to allow for, but they all have their place.

Lutes are certainly ladder braced; by no sense of the imagination can they be likened to lattice bracing. Lattices by their very definition have to have crossing braces, and yes lattice bracing also has its place, as Smallman has shown, though I have to admit not being fond of the Smallman guitars I’ve played, but they meet a specific requirement as do Xs and ladders.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

If a ladder braced guitar is the best made by anyone on this forum, then why is the builder still making "X" braced guitars?   If I hit a magic formula of bracing that was clearly superior, that's all I'd do...

It's all right Hesh, he's not worth the bother. As you know he's always right and always has to have the last word.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hesh, good points.

Colin, you made a rather broad and sweeping statement about a John How ladder braced guitar being "the best sounding guitar on the forum". Hmmm... Interesting... I have no doubt that it must be a fine instrument, but that is quite the endorsement. Love to hear it; love to play it... How (no pun intended) would you characterize the tone? (giving you a chance for the last word here :-) )

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] Hesh, good points.

Colin, you made a rather broad and sweeping statement about a John How ladder braced guitar being "the best sounding guitar on the forum". Hmmm... Interesting... I have no doubt that it must be a fine instrument, but that is quite the endorsement. Love to hear it; love to play it... How (no pun intended) would you characterize the tone? (giving you a chance for the last word here :-) )[/QUOTE]

Get the quote right, I said if you read it again, "still the best sounding guitar I've heard on the forum". Your selectively leaving out the words "I've heard" makes an enormous difference. Others may and probably will disagree with my view, and have every right to do so. Because I think that it is doesn't mean everybody or indeed anybody has to agree.

As to how it sounds, that's a very subjective thing, my best advice would be to go to John's website where there are a number of recordings of his ladder guitar by various players. Try this link (may work!) to one track by Bill Shepherd.

Bill Shepherd

You may or may not like it, that doesn't mean your right and I'm wrong, or indeed visa versa, just that our tastes differ. I've never been a fan of the richer BRW type sound prefering the punchier mahogany. As I said tastes differ so there is no absolute best, only a personal favourite. As I said "best I've heard".

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin wrote:
"I’m not sure where the story of lute tops coming off regularly to be ironed flat originally came from."

I dug out the folder of photocopies I got from Joel Van Lenep when I took a course in lute design and construction with him, more than 25 years ago. I believe the publication was a book by Thomas Mace, from the 17th century, and entitled 'Musick's Monument' (all of this from memory). At any rate, he begins Chapter IV with:
"And now I talk of living in the Country,it puts me in mind of One very needful Thing, which whoever lives far from Work-men,and keeps a Lute, cannot be without the knowledge of, without extraordinary Inconvenience; which is, How to take off a Lute Belly, and get it on again Compleatly, and is a Great Curiosity to perform well and neatly

And you must know that once in a Year or two, if you have not very Good luck, you will be constrained to have it taken off"

(doncha love italics?)

Sorry I can't be more specific about the publication, but there you are. Much of his advice, about fitting pegs, stringing, and so on, is 'right on', so he seems to have known what he was about. I loved his version of masking tape: soak a strip of parcment in glue, and let it gel. Put one end down, heat it with a hot iron, and press it in place. Pull the other end tight, and tack it down the same way. Then run the iron along the rest of the tape. The parchment shrinks from the heat and drying, and pulls things together. You wash it off with warm water.

Certainly 'real' lattice bracing is a crossed pattern. However the bracing on the lute top is so closely spaced that it serves something of the same purpose, which is to take up the stress with bracing, and provide only a thin membrane in between as a soundboard. In the case of the lute, the stiffness of the asoundboard is critical, because of the lack of longitudinal braces, but it can also be quite thin because the unsupported spans are so small. It is not lattice bracing, but begins to approach that status in some ways. I guess it's all in whether you're a 'splitter' or a 'lumper'. ;)

Wood, of course, cold creeps, so, indeed, no wooden top will retain it's shape forever under the stress of stings. Some retain their shape longer than others, though.   

Interesting Alan I'll search the libraries and see if I can track it down, as I said though, none of the people I regularly talk to would concur with Mace. It may have been due to the local environmental conditions or the fact that early 17th century lutes were, not to put too fine a point on it, not very good! Though tops did have to be taken off regularly to have braces glued back on as you know aren't tucked or thinned to nothing at the ends so any sharp knock and off they pop. A 1690s Venere I've got on my bench at the moment actually rattles!

Parchment, often manuscript paper, was commonly used as the reinforcement for the joins on the shell, though the very best ones I've seen used silk ribbon, again soaked in hide glue and applied to the join. As the glue dries and contacts, as you say it will pull the joint tight. If I have to repair the back of a lute then finding the correct parchment or silk is sometimes a problem, though the museum stores do have manuscript paper of the right age usually, the problem of course is that the pieces overlap at the ends so often I have to replace more than I would like though I do of course try to preserve as much of the original parchment as possible. I usually use old manuscript paper on my own lutes, but did use silk on my 10-course Venere. I believe some of the 19th century Spanish builders did a similar thing for the back reinforcment.

I've also seen parchment soaked in glue used to repair cracks in the top for the same reason.

All interesting stuff, thanks.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] [QUOTE=Rick Turner] The real guitar world has pretty much rejected ladder braced guitars for anything other than period pieces or ultra cheap-o's. [/QUOTE]
John How has gained GREAT success with his ladder braced guitars from a lot of folks that have reviewed them. And these players are definitely from the real world of guitars. [/QUOTE]

Good reviews are nice, but success is measured in sales.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] [QUOTE=Pwoolson] [QUOTE=Rick Turner] The real guitar world has pretty much rejected ladder braced guitars for anything other than period pieces or ultra cheap-o's. [/QUOTE]
John How has gained GREAT success with his ladder braced guitars from a lot of folks that have reviewed them. And these players are definitely from the real world of guitars. [/QUOTE]

Good reviews are nice, but success is measured in sales.[/QUOTE]

So Estaban must be great succesful guitars then

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Bingo, Howard...

The "market" is a cruel reviewer, but there's an inescapable truth to it in the end. Some designs wink out for reasons other than market forces, but in this case I think that the success of the Martin "X" had some justification.

Re. how they hold up...I don't think the work of any contemporary builder who has been making instruments for less than about 25 years counts for much in this regard. When you start examining instruments that are 50 years old and older you really start to see what problems there are. This is one of the reasons I like the Howe Ormes...they hold up remarkably well being very lightly built and being made for steel strings (steel strings for guitars were in the 1897 Elias Howe catalog...I've got a copy). Studying them has been a revelation.

I agree that there is a real place for ladder braced guitars, and that there is fertile ground in modifying the old funky standard very flat top and lots of braces approach.

I still doubt that you are going to see Jeff Traugott or Jim Olsen start to make traditional ladder braced guitars any time soon. I don't think the market is there for high end guitars made this way. Just my opinion...

of late there seems to be a lot of pointless argument based upon nothing more than some folks wanting to attempt to contradict or prove wrong what another says.

the bulk of this thread has been a hijack toward that end. almost none of the dissent offered was directed to answering the original posters question but rather to attacking the opinion of others.

i concur with rick's view that ladder braced tops have not generally been a huge success in the steel string era, and have been subject to the problems cited above. i've been putting them back together for over 40 years also.

it is also a fact that the overwhelming majority of quality guitars built in the modern era have been and are x-braced.

certainly there have been successful ladder braced guitars, both historically and currently. but the numbers are inconsequential in the greater scheme of things. they remain a small niche market for a very few builders and a very few musicians.

this never ending back biting behavior is boorish, and boring.     

For me success has nothing to do with sales.

In choosing to make crafting instruments a profit driven endeavor you limit yourself to building what the market wants or creating a market.

The thought processes I go through and all the different ways I feel my way though construction are for me so soul satisfying that it does not matter that I eat more canned tuna than prime rib.

By my own measure I am not as successful as I would like to be, money and the other mundanities of life intrude.

Profit is necessary otherwise there would not be guitars for us to play.

By accepting a different set of limitations the process itself becomes my success.

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

This must be the old tension between those who do not depend on lutherie for a living and those who do...

There's nothing wrong with being a dedicated and fine amateur..."for the love of it", the original meaning of the word, but there are places where the two extremes just cannot be reconciled, and to argue from each extreme is pointless.

For me, success has a great deal to do with sales. Not in the personal gratification sense...I'd get that anyway...but in the sense that where I'm coming from is the necessity to earn a living at this craft...a living for me and the four kids I've helped to raise on my meager pay as a self-employed luthier. So when someone asks for advice re. a design approach, my own comments will always be tempered by the fire of the market place...a heat I've been dealing with for most of my adult life.

If you want to go off and build esoteric nano-niche instruments and you can pull that off, more power to you. If you want to build art projects; that is great. But if you're specifically asking me for advice...which is where this whole thread began...then you're going to get the opinion of someone who lives the life of a professional and commercially oriented luthier...and I'm considered esoteric in the real world of guitars.   

I see nothing wrong with this thread.

What disagreement there is is presented as a challenge to ideas (and generally speaking) not pointed at the authors. Clearly there are some interpersonal tensions but I feel like this "disagreement" for the most part has been gentlemanly.

Most of the argument in this post has been about perspective and opinion, and at the end of the day those disagreements are unwinable.

Personally, I think debates and discussions like this are productive ... as long as we can be civil to one another.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I should have said more about how I was using 'success.' Certainly one sense of successful guitar making has nothing to do with selling and everything to do with the instrument. But Paul was offering John's success with ladder braced guitars as a counterexample to Rick's claim that handmade ladder-braced guitars do not sell well. In that context, success in the form of good reviews is insufficient as a counterexample; the guitars would also need to sell well. Perhaps they do; I have no information about John's sales. But people will give enthusiastic reviews to guitars that they do not purchase.

Dave, I think you know I wasn't saying ladder bracing has to or ought to stop. I meant the backbiting. Rick is often curmudgeonly and brusque. It could stop there and not become a contest. I say this as someone who has gone ahead and jumped in and replied in kind to comments I thought were arrogant and wrong-headed. But I never gained much by doing that, and I try to avoid it. If I didn't have enough friendly history with you so that I could think I would be taken positively, I wouldn't have offered my suggestion.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.