Official Luthiers Forum!

Ken, do you have a return on that external vent vac?

    You might be creating a low pressure situation in your shop depending on how well your shop's sealed. You might not be getting the CFM you think.

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

I have thought of the low air flow as well, and I have plenty of cracks and holes for the replinishment of air for the vac system. I try not to run the vac system any more than I have to because it sucks in the hot florida air (100f degrees here today and VERY humid)

Thanks for the links to other suppliers! I'll give them a call and see what they have.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

50 yard rolls at $55-65 are pretty reasonable per. load. I have never found anything cheaper. There are a few outfits that sell at that price. This is one- link

Personally, I buy it at the woodworkers show that comes to town once a year. Price is the same but no shipping.

Peace,Rich

Does the Performax use hook and loop paper?

We used to have pretty good luck with the stuff we got from Woodmaster when we used one of their sanders.   Pretty good machine, too.

To tell you the truth, I'm really not sure about the direction of the winding. The spring paper tensioner is on the right hand side and the static clamp on the left. In order to have the paper end up in the spring side, you have to start at the left. Does anyone with the 16/32 have any input on this?? Hesh may be onto somehting here but I waqnt to make sure...

I have watched the video that came with the machine several times, and they areally dont go into detail on wrapping the paper except that the end of the roll should end up with the spring tensioner side.

That still doesnt mean that I couldnt wrap it in the opposite direction. When I tried wrapping it backwards to what I have now, the paper tears rather quickly right at the bend in the paper where it goes into the clamps. I tore several rolls of paper quickly like that before Iwent to this method. I'm not tearing paper any more, but the paper doesnt seem to last long even when I am sanding tops with it.

I'm really pleased with the sander. It is a well thought out machine and VERY accurate too. This is my first try at sanding maple but I have noticed the burning even with sycamore. I have some osage orange that will go through the sander soon and knowing how dense this stuff is I expect that a wrap of the current paper I am using wont even do a back and sides set. I'll definitely try some 80 grit and possibly some 60 grit papers just to see if this helps with the problems I'm having.

I notice that there are several types of paper also. Some of it is paper backed, some cloth backed and some of it is cotton backed. The paper I am using is cloth backed and it does seem to stretch quite a bit during use. Event he spring tensioner cant seem to keep the belt tight enough without re-adjusting it at times. Would one of the other kinds of backing be better than cloth?

 Most of the papers I find seem to be aluminum oxide. Is there anything better ?

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I think I know what Hesh is thinking(The paper will wind up terminating in opposite directions either way you wrap it so I doubt it would matter), and actually I wind mine the same way Hesh does(I also use a 16/32 like yours Ken). I usually start it from the side closest the motor, Winding in the opposite direction you show in the picture. I try to wrap very snug, and then feed the end through the clamp, give the paper a tug on the open end side then let the clamp grab. I turn it on for a second, and then shut it off. Give the paper one more tug(I have never used the tensioning handle they give you with the machine) and never touch it again. I have used mine for several years now with great results(never had a hint of paper ripping), I sure hope I have not been doing something horribly wrong.

Rich

Standing at the in-feed side with the dust hood open, I wrap mine from left to right as Hesh mentions, but for mine, the issue here is very clear, 120 grit is OK for spruce and other softwoods but 80 grit or courser for any hardwoods.

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]
[/QUOTE]

A problem I've had with tops or backs jointed with titebond is the formation of a streak of glue on the paper, very much like the one on the left edge of the drum in Hesh's picture. If you don't pick it off with an exacto or high pressure air it builds then begins to burn a streak in the wood. Doesn't seem to occur with hide glue.

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] That's interesting Marc and a good argument for me to start using HHG to join plates. Thanks!

Looking at the picture of the clamp above is very telling about how the range finders on digital cameras work. Since it uses sonar it measured the distance to the surface of the mirror, not the distance to the image reflected in the mirror. Just an observation here.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but what a great camera Hesh, you can count the grit on the drum it is soo clearly focused.

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=Dean]You need much more vacuum! The dust is going around and being compressed back between the paper and the wood causing load-up and a tremendous amount of friction heat. The cleaner sticks help a little, but once you have burnt resin stripes, games over. Then you need to buy Wurth pitch and resin remover. Put some in a coffee can and let your belt soak for awhile, take out and rinse and you will believe you have a brand new belt! I use it for my hand-held belt sander, my 16/32 and my 43" wide belt. Here's a link. Go to page 10.
 http://www.louisandcompany.com/machinery/pdf/MSF-Summe r07_2.pdf

Dean
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for that

The glue build up issue is a another reason to look seriously at using hot hide glue for center seams on tops and backs. It sands much better than does Titebond or LMI white glue.

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

To tell you the truth, I'm really not sure about the direction of the winding. The spring paper tensioner is on the right hand side and the static clamp on the left. In order to have the paper end up in the spring side, you have to start at the left. Does anyone with the 16/32 have any input on this?? Hesh may be onto somehting here but I waqnt to make sure...

I have watched the video that came with the machine several times, and they areally dont go into detail on wrapping the paper except that the end of the roll should end up with the spring tensioner side.

That still doesnt mean that I couldnt wrap it in the opposite direction. When I tried wrapping it backwards to what I have now, the paper tears rather quickly right at the bend in the paper where it goes into the clamps. I tore several rolls of paper quickly like that before Iwent to this method. I'm not tearing paper any more, but the paper doesnt seem to last long even when I am sanding tops with it.

I'm really pleased with the sander. It is a well thought out machine and VERY accurate too. This is my first try at sanding maple but I have noticed the burning even with sycamore. I have some osage orange that will go through the sander soon and knowing how dense this stuff is I expect that a wrap of the current paper I am using wont even do a back and sides set. I'll definitely try some 80 grit and possibly some 60 grit papers just to see if this helps with the problems I'm having.

I notice that there are several types of paper also. Some of it is paper backed, some cloth backed and some of it is cotton backed. The paper I am using is cloth backed and it does seem to stretch quite a bit during use. Event he spring tensioner cant seem to keep the belt tight enough without re-adjusting it at times. Would one of the other kinds of backing be better than cloth?

 Most of the papers I find seem to be aluminum oxide. Is there anything better ?

[/QUOTE]

 

Ken, I have the 16-32, I wound it backwards at first and tore a roll. I don't think the paper being wound in one direction or another should matter as far as your gumming problem goes. I think the direction of the winding only matters in getting the max life out of your paper. I have never used 120 grit, and really think that is your main problem. I like the 36 grit or 80 grit only.

I use an 80 grit Klingspor hook and loop backed paper that is also Stearate coated on my homemade sander - I get it from workshop supply here in Canada - its the best paper I have ever used, and lasts a LONG time - spruce for days, rosewoods for wuite a while - liek someone mentioned, clean off any stuck on resin clumps ASAP as they just load and burn stuff. It comes in 50 yard roles, both 3 and 4.5 inch wide ...

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Ken, it didn't occur to me before but I went back and looked at the pics and you indeed do have it wound backwards. If you are standing at the infeed side of the machine, you'll want the roll to fall at your feet when you clip it in the "static" clip. Then roll the drum away from you to make the wraps.
This said, I'm not sure it matters with the burning and loading. It is however sort of a safety issue. You want the winds to be going in the same direction as the drum spins so that they sort of tighten as it spins. If the winds go the other direction, the pull will constantly want to rip it out of the clips. If it does the whole thing will unwind and it could be a potentially dangerous situation. I once had some 36 grit on mine when it literally blew up. (the belt I mean) It blew the cover off the machine and started sending pieces of 36 grit shrapnel flying around the shop. As well as half of a belt still attached to one clip spinning at what ever the speed was and hitting the machine every time around. Trust me, that's a noise you don't want to ever hear first hand.

Welcome to the OLF, Troy.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] I use an 80 grit Klingspor hook and loop backed paper that is also Stearate coated on my homemade sander - I get it from workshop supply here in Canada - its the best paper I have ever used, and lasts a LONG time - spruce for days, rosewoods for wuite a while - liek someone mentioned, clean off any stuck on resin clumps ASAP as they just load and burn stuff. It comes in 50 yard roles, both 3 and 4.5 inch wide ...[/QUOTE]



That's exactly what I use (except 60 and 100 grit) and it does last forever. I built three complete guitars of cherry with 100 grit and it still looked like new. Ran my mad-rose back through it and it was one ball of gum.    So I put on the 60 grit for the mad-rose and no gumming problem at all. I've got a 50 yard roll of each and it will last me through all the guitars I plan to build.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Hesh, Those pictures are great! I don't think I have ever caught a good look at that clip because it is kinda awkward to see. You motivated me to take a look at how I wind(especially because I do start at the sprung side, and it has given me no issues).

I realised that when I start winding I clip the paper(and this is on the sprung side) then I wind the drum once around(to get the paper alighned. I had ahold of the drum through the end with my thumb on the sand paper. When I straighten and snug the paper I noticed the I pulled the paper tight, it also pulled back on the spring. Then as I wind I keep the paper tight with my right hand as I guide the paper onto the drum with my left. When I get to the open end my right hand thumb is placed on the paper and I pinch the fixed clip open with my index finger. I feed the paper through the clip with my left hand, still holding the paper and clip with my right hand. I then grab the tip of the paper(It is easy to grab on the open end of the drum) and wiggle it to get it seated well and give it a good pull as I release the paper and clip with my right hand. After watching the spring side through the process, I noted that I never release tension on the spring(looking at the spring clip as best I could it looked like it may have slipped a bit, but was still tensioned). I also tried reversing the process and finishing on the sprung clip, but could never get the same tension(probably because I am just not used to doing it that way).

I took a picture of my drum. It has 60 grit on it right now. As memory serves, I surfaced approx 20 Spruce soundboards, 4 B/S sets of Koa, 2 B/S sets of Pink Ivory, 2 B/S sets of Myrtle, 2 B/S sets of Sapele. Surfaced Several set billets, 2 Snakewood Fretboards, and a handful of other things that are not coming to mind right now.



This is a shot of the back of the role(cloth backed Aluminum Ox). I don't know what brand the paper is, but it seems to do a good job.


Peace,Rich