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Hi,

I'm not a luthier, but having a guitar made and had a question about Zircote.  I know that the wood is a bit hard to work with, but I also heard that there were some problems with Zircote as far as cracking a few years after being built.  I understand that Zircote is very sensitive to fluctuations is RH and would like some reassurance that I can have a guitar made with Zircote without any problems with cracking.  Oh, and I live in NW Florida so it doesn't get too cold in the winter.

My second choice is Madagascar Rosewood just in case there might be a problem with using Zircote.

Thanks for your help!

Ken

We don't call Ziricote "Mexican Crackwood" for nothing!

Ken, there are no guarantees with tropical exotic woods. Brazilian Rosewood will crack, Ziricote will crack, Madagascar Rosewood will crack. It's part of the nature of these woods. I would love to reassure you that it might never crack, but it's wood, and cracking happens, sometimes for no apparent reason.

Know this...minor cracking or fracturing of a back will not effect the sound audibly. It's almost purely a cosmetic issue.

If you're going to choose between Madrose and Ziricote based on it's propensity to crack, then maybe you should choose Madrose. However, Ziricote is a fantastic tonewood tonally, and is also beautiful to the eye. But as I said, even Madrose can crack under the right conditions. Stuff happens. I'm not sure you should make this the one important factor in governing your decision though. Choose whichever one that will give you the coloration to the sound that you are looking for.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hmmm, my Ziricote classical had a number of checks while building it which were fixed immediately with CA glue.

Since I kept the guitar, and continually use it, I will say this: try to keep the humidity in the midrange(45-55%). Reason? It's purely anedotal BUT my humidifier ran dry while I was away on business (2 days!) and the humidity dropped to less than 30% in the music room. There was a runaway heating problem which boiled the water away. The ziricote back completely collapsed and showed signs of checking again. Rectified. Back in business.

It's a great wood visually and tonally and I wouldn't hesitate to have another one. Just exercise due diligence wherever it's kept. BTW, the guitar was only 6 months old when this happened so it wasn't an age thing.

Medullary rays in ziricote are quite large and spectacular. For this reason I'd suggest you or the builder be very careful of wood selection and hold out for high quality quartersawn stock to reduce the opportunity of splitting. Medullary rays are aligned pith to bark so flatsawn wood is in the weakest grain orientation. Wood tends to crack parallel to the med rays. Think of how a log end end checks like the spoke of a wheel and you got it.

Why, it was during a conversation, with Don Williams, about this very thing, when an epiphatic clarity struck...

(cue dream music, and a french accent)

"The most beautiful, spectacular, and worthwhile things in life are always the most delicate, oui': exotic guitar woods, Italian motorcycles, fashion models, 7-layer wedding cakes, the love of a good woman."

(cut dream music).

Go for the ziricote. Live a little.

(The preceeding philosophical moment was brought to you by New England Tonewoods: delivering exotic guitar woods to unstable luthiers for almost 21 months, give or take).

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Welcome, Ken, to the OLF.  I know nothing about cracking problems, but these other guys do, and I would listen carefully.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Bill Greene]Why, it was during a conversation, with Don Williams, about this very thing, when an epiphatic clarity struck...

(cue dream music, and a french accent)

"The most beautiful, spectacular, and worthwhile things in life are always the most delicate, oui': exotic guitar woods, Italian motorcycles, fashion models, 7-layer wedding cakes, the love of a good woman."

(cut dream music).

Go for the ziricote. Live a little.

(The preceeding philosophical moment was brought to you by New England Tonewoods: delivering exotic guitar woods to unstable luthiers for almost 21 months, give or take).

[/QUOTE]

Your post made me smile. 

Flood the sides with thin CA inside and out prior to bending. Aloww over night for the CA to cure. Sand off the CA buld up on the surface. The CA will have penetrated faily deep into the sides. Where a resorator when bending and googles. There will be fumes

Now when you build your body ad more than normal side cleats. This will keep any split that happens on the side from opening up if it does.

If you plan on ladder bracing the back you may want to add an extra brace in the lower bout.

Coincidentally I live in Tampa, Florida and built a Ziricote guitar for my son two years ago and a Madagascar Rosewood guitar for my wife 18 months ago. They both stay indoors with RH of 50% (although my wife leaves hers out of the case too much). We have had no problems or cracks - beautiful wood, beautiful sound.

Bill, you're a hoot.

I must add that Ziricote and Brazilian, are two of my all-time favorite back and side woods.

What Bill so eloquently was saying is part of a philosophy that I've developed over the years, and that is that the very best things in life, guitar related or otherwise, seem to be the most fragile. We build guitars as light as we can to try to get the best balance between sound and structure. The best woods that we can use are also those that are the most unstable.
Why is that? I don't know. Perhaps nature has designed it so that we're supposed to experience great beauty, and yet understand how delicate it is so that we will be responsible in how we maintain it, be it a guitar, a woman, a rose, or the Earth itself.

To add to what Rick said...those dark dark brown ink lines in Ziricote seem to be the weak spots for some reason. Not sure why...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=kente777]

[QUOTE=Bill Greene]Why, it was during a conversation, with Don Williams, about this very thing, when an epiphatic clarity struck... (cue dream music, and a french accent) "The most beautiful, spectacular, and worthwhile things in life are always the most delicate, oui': exotic guitar woods, Italian motorcycles, fashion models, 7-layer wedding cakes, the love of a good woman." (cut dream music). Go for the ziricote. Live a little. (The preceeding philosophical moment was brought to you by New England Tonewoods: delivering exotic guitar woods to unstable luthiers for almost 21 months, give or take). [/QUOTE]

Your post made me smile. 

[/QUOTE]

I'm glad Ken...'cause I sure can't build a guitar worth a crap. :-)

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I have not found ziricote to be any more prone to cracking than mad rose. In fact I would say that mad rose is less stable and more crack prone than ziricote. But that's just my experience.

I have heard a lot about ziricote being crack prone both during the building process and after the guitar is finished, but I have not had any more trouble with it than most other woods I work with.

I think many builders work it too thin. Ziricote is dense but also somewhat flexible, especially along the grain. I generally leave my sides about .090 thick and backs about .090 to .095". It bends fine and sounds great at those thicknesses.

Mark

The best sounding guitar I have built so far (only 11 ) was Ziricote. It was very beautiful wood, but I definitely had my share of hairline fractures and cracks during construction (despite careful attention to environmental conditions). They were stabilized during the build and I don't believe any more have developed since it was completed (I'd have to ask my customer though). In my opinion, it was definitely more prone to cracking than other woods I have used (again only a few). Just my 2 cents. Hope all goes well with your new instrument.

I cant aqdd anything to what has been said, but I do want to welcome another Floridian to the forum.

Welcome Ken!

 

whoa... another floridiot and another ken all in one?

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Reguards,

Ken H

Does soaking with water help with bending because its so oily? How long, and how hot should the water be?

[QUOTE=BlackHeart] How long, and how hot should the water be?[/QUOTE]

How do you measure how long water is?

                                      Red

Ziricote was the hot new wood eight or nine years ago. All of us loved the tonal properties of it. It was in many ways much like Brazilian. Then we found about its cracking issues. The problem is, the cracks don't show up immediately. You build a guitar and three weeks later it starts to show a bump in the lacquer. The good part is, a lot of times the crack won't go through the lacquer and you can go in and flood the inside of the crack with thin super glue and it will seal itself up. But, as somebody pointed out, using CA as a sealer is the answer. Flood the sides and back with a thin layer of super glue, sand it back, and finish as usual.

But from a builder's standpoint, unless I am building for a friend or valued customer who understands the risks involved with this wood, I'm not wild about the warranty issues coming back to me. Warranty stuff can kill your business. Yes, you are standing behind your work, but when you're trying to get guitars out the door, the last thing you need is too many guitars coming back for work.

So, while it's pretty, I'm not so wild about it any more.

Lance

mccollumguitars.com

I do not recommend soaking any wood for bending. Ziricote bend easy enough the cracking problem is more longitudinal than cross grain

Soaking wood in water, as in forced submergence opens your self up to warping issues and is not at all necessary to bend. A light spritz of water on the wood before wrapping in damp kraft paper or aluminum foil is a much better process.

[QUOTE=McCollum]Ziricote was the hot new wood eight or nine years ago. All of us loved the tonal properties of it. It was in many ways much like Brazilian. Then we found about its cracking issues. The problem is, the cracks don't show up immediately. You build a guitar and three weeks later it starts to show a bump in the lacquer. The good part is, a lot of times the crack won't go through the lacquer and you can go in and flood the inside of the crack with thin super glue and it will seal itself up. But, as somebody pointed out, using CA as a sealer is the answer. Flood the sides and back with a thin layer of super glue, sand it back, and finish as usual.

But from a builder's standpoint, unless I am building for a friend or valued customer who understands the risks involved with this wood, I'm not wild about the warranty issues coming back to me. Warranty stuff can kill your business. Yes, you are standing behind your work, but when you're trying to get guitars out the door, the last thing you need is too many guitars coming back for work.

So, while it's pretty, I'm not so wild about it any more.

Lance

mccollumguitars.com
[/QUOTE]

Lance,

I'm also looking at Madagascar Rosewood.  What do think about this wood from both a builder and tone perspective?

thanks.

Ken

[QUOTE=BlackHeart] Does soaking with water help with bending because its so oily? How long, and how hot should the water be?[/QUOTE]

Ziricote isn't an oily wood in my experience. Perhaps others have had different experiences.

[quote=Lance McCollum]But from a builder's standpoint, unless I am building for a friend or valued customer who understands the risks involved with this wood, I'm not wild about the warranty issues coming back to me. Warranty stuff can kill your business. Yes, you are standing behind your work, but when you're trying to get guitars out the door, the last thing you need is too many guitars coming back for work.[/quote]

I actually lost a sale a year or so ago because I wouldn't warrantee Ziricote or Brazilian against cracking. I'm happy to warrantee my worksmanship, but I have no control over what some exotic woods will do. Some of that stuff will go through the entire building and finishing process without any indication of cracking, and all of a sudden out of nowhere....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."