Official Luthiers Forum!

Having read probably every post here for the last couple of years concerning
various finishing materials, I don't think I've ever seen Pianolac mentioned. I
haven't used it, but if you read the information at their Web site, it sounds
like it might be worth a try ([URL=http://www.pianolac.com]. Has anyone
out there used it and if so, what are its characteristics? What was the
resulting finish like? How did it rub out, etc.? Pictures?
Craig S.

I've never heard of it, but I suppose it could be a waterborne finish worth
trying - I haven't beens satisfied with others, but it's been about 10 years
and I'm sure the chemistry has changed since I tried last.

What really caught my eye on their website was the name of their company -
StarHawk Industries. Does anyone remember Star, Mohawk, and Behlen
as independent companies before the gods of conglomeration wrapped
them all up under Valspar's domain? I wonder if there's any possibility this
could be some of their chemists who got left behind. Either that or it could
be a name intended purely to mislead folks like me in to thinking things like
that.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

My question to you is simply, "Why?"

Why go away from products that have been proven to work well?   Why go away from products that have been specifically formulated for guitar finishes?   Why be a masochist about all this finish stuff?   And if finish is really such a bugaboo, why not send your finish work out to a specialist like my pal Addam Stark who can do ultra thin nitro, polyester, satin lacquer or urethane, or whatever for probably less money than it should be worth to you to have a truly pro job done?

I have a recent interest in using water based or at least very low VOC
finishes, because one of the six other businesses in my building is a
midwifery, Center for the Childbearing Year. Even when I get my new
spray room finally installed and exhausting over the roof, I would like to
keep stuff like methyl ethyl ketones to a minimum.

I'll still need to use nitro for most touchups, but touchups are relatively
low volume. It will likely be at least another year before I get back in to
building, but since I need the booth anyway for touchup I would like to be
able to do finishing in my own shop.

Waterborne finishes are pretty hard to beat for low VOC's, or any toxins
that can't be easily filtered at the exhaust. The problem is I've never
found one I liked. I working with Bryan Galloup when he had a real bad
reaction to the McFadden's nitro, and we ended up working with chemists
from Valspar and KTM to find a suitable replacement. KTM tried to make
a number of different waterborne formulas for us, but they were all
lacking in one area or another. If it was hard enough to resist denting at
least as good as nitro, then it checked and crazed prematurely. If it was
plasticized enough to lessen the crazing then it would dent if way too
easily. Bonding, gloss level, all sorts of things that we just couldn't get to
our liking. We were just too used to nitro, and that was our benchmark at
the time.

By the time we had given up on KTM's stuff, we had reasonably isolated
the plasticizer or solvent or whatever it was (forgive my memory, but this
was at least 10 years ago) that Bryan had become sensitized to and were
able to go back to a different nitro formula through Valspar. I haven't
tried any water based stuff since then, so I don't know how much it has
changed. I would still like to give it another try for health and
environmental reasons, though I would prefer to find someone else who
has already found a good formula.

'Till then I'll still be using shellac and nitro. It's what I'm fluent in, and I
suppose I'll just have to spray when the midwifery is closed.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

There was much discussion about this product over on the MIMF forum a year or two ago. I think the general concensus was it was "smoke and mirrors". I believe Mario and others tried to get samples and see if it met their claims or not. They were unwilling to provide any information about ingredients or anything.

But, my memory isn't as good as it once was. Mosey on over to the MIMF and do a search for it if you want accurate details.

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

That's my recollection too. It has come up a couple of times on various forums, and while I don't recall the details, people either couldn't get it, or couldn't get any good reason to think it would be a good guitar finish.

Every couple of years the waterborne manufacturers announce that their new product has solved all the problems with waterborne. At least until they solve them again the next time.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

Rick, I understand what you're saying. Maybe I have a penchant for self-
inflicted pain!! But until recently, I had always felt I should be able to finish
what I started (as my Mother always told me). I am in fact seriously
considering sending the finishing out. I guess I was just holding out hope
there was a waterborn out there that lived up to expectations. As Alan
Carruth always says, "There's no such thing as a good finish." There's only
the one(s) you're willing to live with.
Craig S.

Snake Oil. A number of us tried to get the product, and they wouldn't deliver it. We tried to find out from them whether it was an acrylic, or a urethane, or some combination, and all they would say was that it was a proprietary formula, and wouldn't divulge any information about it. We tried to explain the logical reasoning behind our need to know the basics, but they simply refused to say anything. As far as anyone knows, nobody has been able to procure even a sample to try.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Why would someone claim that they have a product and then not sell it? If they won't let you order any, how do they scam you? I can see why they wouldn't offer samples for free but it sounds like they won't even sell it. Very odd.

Email them and ask for the MSDS sheet. By law they must provide it on demand.