Help Identify An Old Guitar?

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Help Identify An Old Guitar?

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joe white(old)

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:50 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:55 am
Posts: 404
Location: United States

At the suggestion of JJ, I have acquired a few old guitars to strip, pore fill and finish since I want to start offering this service soon. Some may remember I recently closed an auto body shop that I had worked at since I was 15 years old and I have an interest in building but mostly in finishing. At any rate, one of the guitars I have is quite interesting. It might be old? It has an arch top of spruce, single cream plastic bound top, maple sides and mahogany back. Mahogany neck with peg head truss nut, "Gibson" looking upper peg head. The guitar is worth saving, needs some braces re-glued. I have stripped the old finish that looks like it was put on with a brush. Here are a couple pics.

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Rick Turner

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:01 pm

Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States

Looks kind of like a Gibson L-50, but it doesn't quite match all specs...which would be typical for a mid '30s Gibson!

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joe white(old)

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:22 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:55 am
Posts: 404
Location: United States

I was thinking that It might have been all black originally which would hide the fact that the woods did not match? As for a refret, I hate to mess with the neck and frets, they are in remarkably great shape. Here is a close up of the "string hanger" I don't know the tech. name for it.

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David Collins

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:25 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060

I've had four round soundhole 20's and 30's L-4s in the shop from one
collector in the past few weeks, and one L-75. That looks like a strange
blend of a number of Gibson L's. L-4, L-50, L-75.

If the bridge and tailpiece are original, I would say it looks like a late 20's /
early 30's L-4, with a replaced flat mahogany back like an L-75. Weird...

I would be very interested to see the top bracing. It's been interesting to see
the transition the bracing took from '28 - '37 that this collection spans. If
you have a mirror and lamp to get some bracing shots, I could probably tell
you more. I have one of them in the shop for a refret right now, and another
coming back in next week.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

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joe white(old)

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:39 pm

Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:55 am
Posts: 404
Location: United States

David, One thing that may or may not be of interest is the use of cloth strips on the sides and also at eack of four "unions" in the bracing. There are two main braces that run from top of body to bottom and one brace under the bridge and another just south of the soundhole and a much flatter one north of the soundhole. I'll try to get a mirror together to get some photos. What finish would this guitar have had? A burst top with dark stained sides and back?

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Rick Turner

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:53 pm

Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States

That could have originally had a very tight 'burst or it could have even been black. I have to tell you that from what I can see, you did an outstanding job of removing the old finish with minimal damage to original detail sanding. Nice one. You might check with Gruhn on what it is, but I'm with David on it being a slightly off spec version of those cheaper "L" models. But that's typical for Gibson...just when you think you know everything that they made, along comes something totally weird, and no company has been so inconsistently consistent about changing specifications but not model numbers or changing model numbers and not specs. They would do anything and call it anything.

The bottom line is that that guitar certainly looks like a Kalamazoo product. In fact it could have been a "Kalamazoo" brand...made by Gibson...and now that I've typed that, it seems very possible. I'm now going to call it a Kalamazoo, but I won't be tweaked if someone proves it's a Gibson.

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David Collins

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:09 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060

That part of the tailpiece is less important than the string retainer part in
dating and identifying. By the mid 30's they had switched to a raised
diamond tailpiece, so that one can't be later than '34 or '35. They had
also all but dropped round soundholes in favor of F-holes.

The other strange part aside from the mahogany back with maple sides,
is the lack of a pearl logo on the headstock. My books are all at the shop,
but I can't immediately recall an early 30's round soundhole budget
model archtop that would have had a silkscreened logo.

I would also be interested in a better shot of the block under the
fingerboard extension. The were set in much further early on than they
were later, but I can't see much from the photos. The bracing in the late
20's would be solid spruce, roughly 9/16" tall by under 1/4" wide. By the
early 30's they would be much wider and shorter, kerfed on the inside
surface then capped with a thin spruce veneer. By the late 40's they would
be kerfed on the glued surface, though I've not noted exactly when this
transition occurred.

How wide is the body? If it's down under 15" then I guess it could be an
early L-30 or something, though I'll have to check the specs on that. I
think most of those were made with F-holes standard. All these
measurements and models are from recollection, so don't hold me to any
of these guesses until I look them up.

It could also certainly be a Gibson employee guitar, or just an odd one
that came off the line which are not too uncommon.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

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David Collins

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:21 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060

It's late and I don't know why that didn't even occur to me. It certainly
could be a Kalamazoo, Oriole, Grinnell, or any number of other models
made at the Kalamazoo plant. They started putting out the Kalamazoos in
'32 or '33 I think, so that would line up. They usually changed the
headstock, cutting them off square or something similar, but perhaps not
always.

Early Kalamazoos often got leftover parts. I had a '33 Kalamazoo KG-11
that was made of so many reused and leftover parts it was comical. It was
undoubtedly all factory original though.

Here's another useful tool for dating early 30's Gibsons. Take a look at
the kerfing/side joint. As best I can trace, Gibson first started using this
strange creamy-tan adhesive in mid '33. It looks almost like a casein
glue, and was only used at the lining to side joint. The tops and backs will
still have hide glue holding them to the sides. If nothing else, that should
tell you pre or post mid '33.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

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David Collins

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:23 pm

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060

Here's a shot of a late '33 lining glue joint.

Before '33 (as best as I have been able to record) it would have been all hide
glue.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

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Rick Turner

Post subject:

Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:45 pm

Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States

David, excellent calls all the way...especially about that weird glue...

Here's the thing...Gibson had payroll to make. The Depression hit in 1929. You do what you have to do. You get stuff out the door so you can make payroll every Friday. Specs be damned.

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joe white(old)

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:00 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:55 am
Posts: 404
Location: United States

Great stuff! This is fun! Here are some specs,

body length=19 1/4

upper bout=10 3/8

waist=8 3/8

lower bout=14 7/8

Here are a couple more shots of braces and glue. The glue is mostly transparent, lightly yellow.

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Howard Klepper

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:26 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692

There was another company that used that headstock shape, but my memory is failing me. The headstock in the photo also looks a bit wider than a Kalamazoo. The heel of the neck does not look like a Gibson/Kalamazoo product. I'll see if my memory can return.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

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Howard Klepper

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:21 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692

July 19, 1910 is a date that Gibson received patents on its archtop guitar tailpieces ( I have one that was on an old L-5). I would agree that it is a Kalamazoo on that basis.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

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David Collins

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:07 am

Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060

I'd say 70%-80% certain that It's a 1935 Gibson L-30. The mahogany back is
weird, but the rest all lines up. Gibson introduced the L-30 round soundhole
with single bound top and unbound back in '35 before switching to the f-
holes (round soundholes were still an option through the late 30's). The
L-37 would have had a bound back.

They were usually finished in black as a standard color, so I guess I wouldn't
find the mismatched mahogany back that surprising. Like Rick said, it was
depression era and they would sell whatever they could make with what they
had. By late '35 / early '36 the tailpiece would have changed to the raised
diamond style. The Kalamazoo brand usually had a squared off headstock,
and to my knowledge was never made with the round soundhole.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

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joe white(old)

Post subject:

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:34 am

Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 3:55 am
Posts: 404
Location: United States

Great work David! I will now assume that I am restoring an early 1935 Gibson L-30. The black finish sounds pretty accurate as I am still trying to sand some black out of the neck and sides where it got deep into the grain. I'm planning on a dark tobacco burst around the outer edge of the top and onto the sides and around the back to help hide the mis-matched wood on the back. What a fun little guitar this will be to have around to show off my finishing skills and play as well.

Now to address the back seperation at the lower bout.

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