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Regarding the sound, probably the eternal problem of factory produced guitars. They are all made to the same thickness, some will sound ok, some poor, some nice.  And many people say Ramirez' are overpriced. A couple classical players friends of mine have the 2000 Euro Ramirez model, and both of these guitars sound good and look stunning, but they went to Spain and sorted through dozens and dozens of guitars until settling on these.

I have a 600$ Alhambra which sounds much better than the price paid, and the finish and joinery are absolutely impeccable. But I had to reject a bunch of others before it, mostly because of aesthetic problems.

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Build log

Filippo has an excellent point.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
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Todd, a lot of these factory made guitars like Ramirez, Alhambra, Cordoba, etc are made in the same factories to slightly different specifications. Sure there's a lot of differences. Personally, I wouldn't expect it to take much to beat a typical Ramirez 1a, sound wise.

Those Spanish factories are pretty low tech, too. But you shouldn't see much in the way of poor craftsmandship in a 1a, or in luthier made guitars.

But on the same token, if I were making a top and some slight flaw exposed itself that was purely cosmetic I'd still use it. Aesthetics are the last thing I judge a soundboard on and I'm certainly not throwing away any top I feel will make a great sounding guitar.

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Edit?

A Ramirez 1a, of course, is hand made. But its still basically a factory guitar in that no room for interpretation is allowed by the makers.

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You always hear that buyers/players in the classical genre are much harder to please, and tend to be much pickier about everything.  I haven't spent a lot of time examining classical guitars, but everytime I wander over to that section in ye olde Guitar Center, I am amazed at the overall low standards in the fit and finish department.  So what's the deal?  Maybe all that time spent sight reading sheet music impairs one's vision.

It also seems apparent that the fit and finish standard has gone up exponentially over the past several years - at least as it applies to steel string guitars.  It also seems that the demand for over the top bling in back and side material has gone way up as well.  You have to stop and wonder if maybe some of that effort would be better spent on advancing the sound and science of the instrument. 

Hey, maybe the classical builders have it figured out?

I have a $150.00 classical alvarez, and its not bad as you describe! I would say that if they have some glues squeeze out on the bottom they are doing the tops first, so this may indicate they are further voicing them before putting on the back. I think alot of builders put the back on first to avoid the visual aspect of glue squeeze out. Its impossible to clean up unless you had an access hole to the gobar or clamp deck. And scraping off hardened hide glue is not something I ever want to do (again) if possible! Where there is glue squeeze out, it stays. Get it before it dries.

 

(Oh god, I think Ill wait for my 5th guitar for that.)

(Oh god, I think Ill wait for my 5th guitar for that.)

 

The access hole in the gobar deck that is....what a pain....

I think the classical players are very critical with the quality of instrument, but they tend to be most concerned with tone and playablity. Low end classicals are sold mainly to begginers. The intermediate to advanced players usually are playing instruments of higher quality and price. With which comes a standard quality of finish with the expected tone.

A customer of mine who teaches( and is a world renowned artist) recently told me that he thought everything below the $5000 price range wasn't worth the dollars being asked. Most of his students wanted quality but couldn't afford the $5k plus ticket so something in the $3000 range would be acceptable but they couldn't find anything they really liked for that amount. He felt there is a market niche for the $3000 price range if you could build a really quality box at that price. I think that's a pretty tough order...quality materials, hrs and hrs of quality work, F.P. finishes, and a quality case for $3000? Maybe, but that's working hard.

I also find that many steel string players, while concerned about  tone, gravitate toward the flash ( I don't do/like flash...no abalone, no tree of life, no birds, fish etc on my guitars). I recently had two players in my shop, both intermediate steel stringers and both looked longer and harder at the inlay on a crap Vietnamese guitar loaded with abababalony, rather than several plain jane Martins and a 1960's Epi sitting there. One feeding off the other about the inlay and all it's attributes, neither saying anything about tone or even playability of any of the instruments.  

My wife reminds me over and over that most buyers buy the sizzle not the steak. i am starting to believe her.

The higher end buyer who is a serious player ( advanced level and gigging) certainly looks at the instrument differently. They are listening to the instrument...playing the instrument carefully and sonically evaluating. The high end spoiled hitter (I call them hesh's for short, no reference to OLF's Hesh)- Doctor, Lawyer, etc. they want the flash for sure, they are usually the guys who played in a band as a kid, quit when they went to college, and now have the money to buy higher end instruments. They don't hear much of anything but can see all the flash. They are mostly collectors buying what they think is art.

I also found out that many an intermediate player looks for, and needs, approval, from some other player(s) that they look up to. If so & so likes the guitar, or expresses how beautiful it is, then it is raved about at any price. That's why the intermediate buyer usually shops with a friend...they need to told what a deal they got on that "beautiful" instrument.

Man this is a tough business...

I am sure those with different demographics and many more years experience will have different oppinions. But here in the Tampa Bay, Stuffy Sarasota area...this is how it goes.

 

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

It could be said that a steak without sizzle is rare, but a steak abundantly sizzled is a steak well-done! MMMM...steak!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

But seriously Dave, you have a point there!

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It seems to me that a very good indication of how focused the classical guitarist is on the sound of the instrument over fit and finish is borne out by the GAL article on the Romanillos guitar played by Julian Bream for so long (and available as a drawing by Kevin Aram - Thanks! I'm joining three backs and tops just next week.) The guitar apparently left Jose's shop with not much more on the top than a wash coat of shellac, and wasn't properly polished until years later? So much for any sort of fixation on the finish details.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I believe that all guitar buyers should select their guitar with a blindfold on. Cosmetics is certainly of secondary importance to sonic qualities, they are, after all, musical instruments and the tone and playability must be the governing factor in selection. Has you looked inside a 30s golden era Martin? More glue squeezing out than holding the thing together. That is not to say that a clean build is not something that shouldn't be aimed at, but it is not the be-all and end-all.

That said I think we tend to undervalue quality custom build guitars. My own classical guitar is in the $7000+ bracket and is the base model of the builder (he's get's mention in one of the above posts), it is the minimum I would expect to pay for the experience of the builder who has produced a remarkable instrument. It is much harder to build a good nylon sting instrument than a good steel string due to the lower energy available to drive the top.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

What Colin said...

I have a Ramirez 1a, thanks to what was an unfortunate UPS accident for my employer at the time, Gibson who briefly distributed the guitars, but a fortunate accident for me. It's very well made inside and out, but at the time (1988) it was a $3,700.00 guitar...up around $8,000 in current bucks. It's been great having that around as a decent example of one of the pinnacle designs of a true Spanish guitar.   

Smallman's guitars have hardly any finish on the top. It looks like about one hour of French polish, and the insides can be a bit rough, too.   But they punch out to the back of a concert hall.

I cant answer the question about classicals, but I can tell you this about steel string instruments:

I believe Martin started this off with their D-45 guitar and then to a lesser extent the D-41. FOr all practical purposes, they are the same guitar as the lesser priced D-28. People witht he extra money would spend the money on all of the bling just as a status symbol, not because they guitar sounded any better. Martin then defined another guitar, the HD-28 (heringbone purflings) which was a poor man's bling and it went like hot cakes to the masses. People would pay an extra couple of hundred for the herringbone because it only meant another month or so of saving up to get the "good stuff".

I have a feeling that the trend is to now go back to quality over bling in the steel string market. I hope I am right, but I will continue to add touches of bling anyway just to dress up my instruments.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Since you asked for my opinion, I'll give it.... just keep in mind that this is only my opinion and dont take it as the gospel in lutherie.

One of the guys that plays bass in our church group brought me an acoustic bass to evaluate recently. The first thing I noticed was that all of the abalone purfling (it was loaded with it) was not abalone at all, but a plastic strip that somewhat resembled abalone. I'm afraid that shaded my thoguhts on the guitar. After playing it for a few minutes, I told him that if he could buy it at a real steal, to get it and I would work on it, shape the braces, adjust the nut and saddle, and try to get it playing at it's best potential. I'm afraid he was buying it strictly for the bling and not for quality of tone. Aparently the guy that was selling it did the same thing.

To tell you the truth, I am striving to build a dread with the tone of Willie Nelson's martin. I may have to increase the size of the sound hole in order to get that effect.... dont know yet. In the mean time, the guitars I am producing are getting better and better sounding. Aparently I am impressing at least some people with the tone because they keep buying them

I have also talked several people out of buying guitars over the Internet. I, too, feel that one has to play the instrument in order to properly evaluate it. I dont think you can do that over the interent. I used to have a statement on my web site that read: "All instruments MUST be picked up in person"..... I deleted that statement because I realize that some of my customers are coming from the other side of the world and they cannot come to the one redlight town of Hilliard, Florida to pick up a guitar. I still would rather that they pick up the guitar though... I am also trying to add some more sound clips to my web site along with better pictures which will show off some of my craftsmanship. I know in advance that none of this will substitute for holding an instrument in your hands and playing it. Any savvy player should know this also.

One customer I talked to recently questioned the difference in prices for some of my guitars. I basically told him like this:  Once you get the cost of the wood out of the way, the guitar I will build you will be built the same way. I believe in what I am doing and I know good tone when I hear it. If you want me to add a lot of bling to it, I can do that too, but none of the bling will enhance the tone of the guitar one bit... it is just there for show. I'll do as much bling or as little as you can afford.... it is up to you.

One guitar I am building right now is over the top with bling. To me, it is almost gawdy (sp?) looking because it has too much... front and back. It sounds good, but that good tone isnt because of the bling. I'm sure it will sell though and for a lot more money than any of my other guitars too.  I can build you a really good sounding rosewood/ Adi guitar that will blow your socks off for about $3,000 or I can build that same guitar with over the top bling on it for around $6,000.  They will both sound the same but if you are willing to pay for the bling, then I'll build it!

I have owned so many guitars in my life that I cant even count them all. Right now I have a total of 15 factory made instruments. I have owned about every brand of instrument that you can name. (all steel string and some electrics).  I still own a Martin D-35 even though I dont hardly ever play it any more. Tone wise, it is junk to me. I have owned Gibsons, Yamahas, you name it...I'm still more impressed with one of my brand new builds that hasnt even opened up yet over any of these others that I have owned.  I'm sure there is a certain amount of personal bias in that statement, but all I can say about it is to try one out for yourself and you be the judge. I'll stand behind my statements about my instruments.

While I'm on that thought..... I dont have the working experience of standing in a guitar shop and doing setups for years on end. What I do have is 40 years of owning instruments and setting them up myself, doing minor repairs on them and taking good care of them. My 40 years of playing experience has taught me the difference in tonal qualities and a good instrument from a bad one. I have been at the top of my game as a musician since the 6th grade of elementary school. From Band, orchestra, stage bands, country music bands, bluegrass bands, State musician contests, district contests, marching bands, you name it, I have done it when it comes to music. I know quality tone when I hear it.  Anyone who says that you have to spend 20 years in a guitar shop repairing guitars in order to be able to build a quality instrument is really going against my grain.  I'll leave it at that before I go off on a rant....Anyone with a few hand tools and an obsessive desire to build a guitar can build a quality instrument.

Geting back to the bling, I'm pretty sure that it is just some people that have discretionary money that they want to invest in a good sounding instrument that is as much art of vision as much as art of tone.  All of my instruments dont include the bling.

Hope that wasnt too much to read and thanks for asking for my opinions!

Ken

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Reguards,

Ken H

I'm not sure the Rameriz 1A has really been a great instrument since the late 60's and early 70's.  The later ones I have heard do not have nearly the projection or the tone of earlier versions.  They also don't look as good.  They really do look like factory guitars.  If I had a chance to buy a '67 at a bargain price, I might jump on it, but I don't even think I would consider one built later than in the mid to late '70's.  I didn't even pick up a guitar until my son got interested back around 1980.  Knew nothing about guitars, and wasn't interested in music much.  I had a chance to buy a 1974 1A in 1983 for $1200.  If I had had the money I might have, but I didn't.  If I knew then what I know now, I would have found a way. All of that said, the 1A is a very reliable guitar, built like a tank, and not bothered much by conditions, which is one of the reasons performers often like them.  And that's my $0.02 worth. 

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Waddy

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