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I just made a really stupid mistake. When fitting (and gluing) the top for a 12 fret L-00 I shifted the whole top about 5/16" back towards the tail. In other words the distance from the 12th fret to the edge of the sound hole is now about 5/16" greater than it should be. This would mean that I will now need 19 frets in total instead of the intended 12. The guitar is being built as a demo for a number of festivals I'll be at this summer. My question is what affect will this have on the guitar and its sound and would you remove the top and redo it or leave it as 19 frets total and call it an experiment (I don't do much experimentation). I know this is a really bad time to post this question with so many people off to ASIA but I need to get this guitar finished up soon so won't be able to wait too long to make my decision.

Arvey

Can you carefully remove the top and try again?

Not to long ago I glued the back on a guitar. After it dried I noticed that it was not on straight at all. I was able to remove the back by heating a seam separation knife with a torch. I slowly worked my way around the back and got it off without to much difficulty. I then removed the liners where they had been notched for braces and glued in new ones. I cleaned up the back and tried again. It worked great and you can not tell that there was a problem. Could you possibly do this with your top? If it is a demo guitar I think you want it to be as good as it can. It was not to much work to remove the back and try again. 2-3 hours and it was done right.

Josh

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Josh House

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I suspect that that is what I will do. Looking for alternatives and wondering how the sound hole placement will effect sound but do want to have it right. Interesting ly I often don't wory as much about my demos as people arne't as fussy with a demo as they know that thousands of people may play them over a weekend so they take a beating. But they do have to sound good. I then Sell them off cheap (25-40% off)at the end of the summer.arvey38519.5605092593

5/16 won't make much diff on the air movement.

You stated "I will now need 19 frets in total instead of the intended 12."...Why would you need 7 more frets?...Is there enough room on the bridge plate for the bridge to stay in the proper scale lenth position in relation to the nut? If so I would not worry too much and just let the space between the last fret and the sound hole be longer than planed. The biggie here is that the scale length is correct and let the sound hole be off 5/16" if it is just a demo. That is if the issue is the top is shifted but the bracing in that top is in correct position prior to installation of the top. I would have to lay out the bridge plate and braceing to tell but I think you my just have room for the bridge to fit the scale length. jmo



MichaelP38519.6151967593

I don't know if a top will come off as easy as a back would but I never tryed.
I am wondering if the location of the bridge would still work. as long as it still seats at a sweet spot, the sound still should be ok? as long as you can live with the cosmetic "shift" of the sound hole.
I'm not sure what you mean by the 19 frets instead of 12 though.

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

I did something similar to that on one of mine. I went ahead and removed the top. It wasn't that big of a deal if you used something like Titebond. Just go slow and pay attention to the grain direction.

I meant to say I would have to make 19 frets in total instead of the 18 frets in total. The extra 5/16" makes for a big space between the 18th fret and the sound hole so I think I would need an extra fret in there or it would look rather silly. So there would be 19 frets in total. I used Hot Hide glue as I do on all my guitars. The bridge will still catch the bridge plate. I think a big question is will it look wrong.

Put a simple inlay in the 19 fret space and call it good. I was not going to confess but I did a very simular thing on an OM couple years ago. I inlaid my monogram in the dead space looked Ok but I only missed by 3/16". After all if this is a demo I would not want to put a bunch of extra time in it.

I'm probably wrong and usually am, but didn't the Nick Lucas guitars have a shifted soundhole? Or it could be the soundhole is shifted on the 13th fret guitars that SCGC has produced. As long as it is on the bridgeplate I don't think it would matter. You might even be onto something. Another possibility is expand the soundhole. I've noted on this forum that they tend to vary. I've done seperations with titebond but have never tried hide glue. I'd probably go with it as it is now. I really doubt that anyone would notice. Just my .01 cent worth (just payed county taxes and headed for ASIA on Saturday) Don A38519.8038310185

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Don you are on to something. I just went to my files on the L-00 and Nick Lucas. It looks like it wasn't the Nick Lucas that had the shifted soundhole but rather the early thirties 12 fret L-00. I found a picture of an Early thirties 12 fret L-00 and it obviously has the soundhole shifted back but also has 19 frets in total which is what I said in my first post I'd have to do to make this look right. This would mean that my sound hole is perfectly placed to be a copy of an early thirties 12 fret L-00. I can claim this was intentional. I'd love to confirm this with someone who has the actual measurements but realise this might not be possible as the 12 fret was not very common. I was also thinking I could use a longer scale but I think I will leave it as is with 19 frets in total. If you google "Concert sized guitars" you can see the picture of the 12 Fret.arvey38519.8292824074

Hi I have in my workshop a Plan Based on Martin OO 12 Fret, I just checked and from the 12th Fret Location to the front of Sound Hole is 127mm, Which I make about 5 Inchs is this any Help it has 19 Frets.

That helps me with my decission. While the Martin 00 and the L-00 are very different it tells me that I am on the right track. I wonder what difference having the soundhole (and therefore the bracing) shifted makes?

You might try here. I remember it being discussed but don't remember which thread so you will need to do a search. It seems like Al Carruth was posting. He is the man who would know so you might have to wait until ASIA is over.

Follow up. These are good threads Sound hole and here

and check out the H-13 on Paul Hostetter's site.

I think you will notice the sound hole is shifted towards the lower bout. Don A38519.8965740741

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Very informative. Yes the soundhole is shifted back on the H-13, at least compared to what I normally build.

Richard,
I have heard that there are no mistakes, only opportunities. If all of us built exact replicas of some other design, life would be boring. It is the little variations that can bring knowledge.
Let us know how it turns out.
I'm glad you are leaning to keeping it shifted.
I could imagine the top removal being a tough job.

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Top "removal" isn't a tough job, it is removing in such a way as to be able to easily put it back on that is tough.

Wow, you guys are making way too big of a deal about this! If the bridge lands on the bridgeplate, and you haven't cut the fingerboard at the 18th fret, what's the big deal? 5/16 of an inch is not going to affect the sound. And, for a beginner trying to get a top off, you'll probably end up cracking it. I'd replace the fingerboard first, if it was too short.

So, go ahead, finish this one, and move on to the next one.

Lance

[QUOTE=McCollum] Wow, you guys are making way too big of a deal about this! If the bridge lands on the bridgeplate, and you haven't cut the fingerboard at the 18th fret, what's the big deal? 5/16 of an inch is not going to affect the sound. And, for a beginner trying to get a top off, you'll probably end up cracking it. I'd replace the fingerboard first, if it was too short.

So, go ahead, finish this one, and move on to the next one.

Lance[/QUOTE]

Lance,

I like your style! Thanks for putting things in perspective.

Jeff

Very true lance but I can't afford to build something that won't sell just to see so I try to draw on others experience. As I said this guitar is being built as a demo and I am glad that the "mistake" looks like it has become a good thing. I am looking forward to comparing it to an 18 fret total L-00 and see. I may like this one better and I may discover it makes no noticable difference. As you are well aware, sometimes the smallest thing can make a big difference (I once played an L-00 that was only 4" in depth and I couldn't believe the difference that made, not a good difference in my book either). This guitar will probably have a little less bass responce but since my L-00 guitars are ussually very full it hopefully won't be noticable. Since this guitar will be a demo for the summer and then sold in the fall it has to "work". I've only been building full time for about a year now so unfortunately I can't afford to take to big of chances. I can't afford to build something that won't sell. So I appreciate the feed back and the historical precidence for this. Fortunately I asked the questions and determined that this should work well.arvey38520.6224652778

I'll admit to not reading all the replies, so this may have been said
already... will the bridge pin holes pass through the bridge plate
correctly?
As for removing the top, consider cutting it off with a router and a 1/16"
slot cutter (with a guide bearing) you'll have to finish off at the neck and
heel blocks with a handsaw (I'd use a japanese one).
-C

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Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

Chris, It has been mentioned that the pin holes will still pass throught the bridge plate. As for removing the top The decission was made to finish the guitar as is since this is actually how the guitars were done in the 30's. If I were going to remove the top I would not use a router and slot sutter. I would only do it that way if the top was obviously beyound repair and there is nothing wrong with this top. I don't know if you have ever removed a top using heat but it isn't that tough to do, still a chance of cracking the top and also damaging the lining but no more damage than using a router especially if you use hide glue. This is going to end up being a 12 fret clear with 19 Frets total guitar.