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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:49 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

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Location: United States

Thanks for clearing the MEKP up Rick and I couldn't agree more with you on nitro. In the auto world, we were still using lacquer well into the 80's and it bugged me to no end. Production was and still is the biggest demand of collision shops so we were refinishing in lacquer one day and buffing the next. If the car sat in the shop for a couple days after re-assembly it just looked horrible. Dyeback was so extreme, not to mention the shrinking into the bodywork and undercoats. I pushed and pushed hard to get into polyester and urethane bases and clears and was so happy when we finally found a great system and made the switch. Even with that, US auto makers were so slow to also make the switch and when they did we had to deal with delaminations while they continued to refine their applications.


As for the catalyzed urethanes/automotive clears, how many of you that have your instruments finished that way have noticed the shrinkage?  Hesh? Anyone else?



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:17 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'll agree with Brock on this one in that this has been a most interesting thread and discussion. Thanks to all for sharing their experiences.


 


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:11 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

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[QUOTE=Hesh1956] I have a number of guitars here that I had finished in cat urethane by Tony Ferguson and I have not noticed any .......shrinkage at all. One is nearing two years since the finishing was done. [/QUOTE]


Sounds like a pretty good track record to me!



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:12 am 
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Koa
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Location: Denver, Colorado
I agree that it's odd the way some people think nitro is harmless. I've
seen people spray it without even wearing a mask. Zoikes!

I include nitro on my toxic list and would rather try polyester. Maybe I'm
too lax about waterbornes, but at least I can clean things up with water
and not a nasty solvent. I still wear my mask, gloves, etc, when spraying
it though.

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"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:52 am 
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Koa
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Location: Is this heaven? "No, it's Iowa."
What a great thread!!!
Thanks to everyone!

long

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:16 pm 
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Koa
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BTW, the LMI metal acid dyes are the US Cellulose dyes. I just prefer to buy the stuff in gallons

I suspected as much; thanks for clarifying. Doesn't much mater to me, as the little LMI bottles are lasting me for years, and bringing gallons across the 49th would prove very difficult.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:28 pm 
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Koa
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Oh, and on the subject of nitro's toxicity, it's well known that I'm sensitized to it to a scrary degree. What's less well known is that it is the result of being exposed to the off gassing of it, not overspray. I sprayed outdoors, in a light breeze(had a wonderful covered porch at the old home), but I'd bring the instruments indoors while they cured
.

What I love most of polyester is that I can protect myself 100% while spraying, exit the building under pressure, and leaving a smaller exhaust fan running overnight, enter a completely safe shop the next morning. In winter, i don't leave the small fan running, but instead, enter the sop donned in my respirator, and hit the big fan, and head back to the house to finish my coffee. 10 minutes later, safe! None of that slow, low level, yet constant, exposure.

there's also less cleaning of the gun, a subject we didn't yet touch upon. Rick uses the 3M disposable cup system, but I simply suspend my gun in a pail of acetone. Sounds nasty, but stay with me a second: I ran a threaded rod through a large pail, and suspend my gun so that the acetone is in the wet passages only. Takes about 3/4 gallon of acetone. The pail is capped tightly(it's an old drywall compound pail, to be exact). When I am done shooting, I add an ounce of MEK in the cup, swish it around, and spray a little. I'll dump this out into a jar to be reused as thinner, and then swish the gun and cup in the acetone to grab a bit of that, and spray a second or three. hen off comes the cut, the gun gets hung in the acetone, and I wash the cup in the pail, and set it aside.

Takes 29 seconds to do, and all  shot out the fan is maybe 1/4 ounce of material. In 3 years, I've not done anything to my gun. Nothing! At the end of the session, I take the cap off and leave that in the pail, also, but that's it. No rebuilds, no gumming, no nothing. I think all guns should live in an acetone bath.... <g>


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:37 pm 
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Koa
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Location: Denver, Colorado
Sweet. Thanks Mario.

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"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Koa
Koa

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Posts: 1041
Location: United States
      I just wanted to make a comment about something said earlier inthis
thread about sanding of a top causing the grain lines to be evident
through the finish.

     The earler comment was to the effect of sanding removing more
material from the softer lines in the top than from the dark harder lines
and this being a cause for the finish showing the texture.

    I thought that it was worth taking a moment to let those who had read
it know that this should never occur when you sand a top and should
never be an issue.

    If you are using a backing surface that allows your abrasive to flex and
follow grain according to hardness and in such small increments, you
need to make a change in that backing material so that you're able to
sand a top to a perfectly flat and consistent surface before finishing.

   I have a dozen or so Dynabrade sanders here and have replaced all of
their backing pads with a slightly more dense and consistent material
than the softer stock material to avoid this very thing.

   The grain lines will show as the top is affected by humidity and
temperature changes, but should never be showing on a freshly finished
new guitar.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:12 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Awesome thread all!!! One of the better ones to come along in quite a while!

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:08 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

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Posts: 404
Location: United States

[QUOTE=Alain Desforges]Awesome thread all!!! One of the better ones to come along in quite a while! [/QUOTE]


I couldn't agree more! I have printed the whole thing out and highlighted certain parts and added it to my own personal guitar finishing binder that I assembled a few months back. The knowlege shared so far is priceless and I hate to see the thread slow down as it has. As it is, I'd like to thank Rick, Kevin, Mar,,,,uh, Grumpy and David Collins for their valuable and unselfish input on a very controversial and sometimes confusing subject. I think any of us that are diving into finishing can learn so much from this thread. 



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:09 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
     Not only has the information offered by so many in this thread been
valuable...it's been enlightening and has revealed the thoughts and
feelings of the people posting it along with their techniques, methods and
preferred materials. That's what makes any post interesting to me...who
the person behind it is.

     Rick has, again, shown his desire to just allow the truth to be heard
about things that can be hard to share or communicate sometimes. As
full time builders, we spend loads of time and money arriving at the
conclusions we come to through R&D efforts in our respective shops.
Some builders refuse to share the small details that make a new method
or technique applicable in someone else's shop without some of the same
expense and time being invested, but Rick has always been generous and
gracious in his open and complete sharing of valuable information.

    This is certainly somethng that is commendable and worthy or deep
thanks from all who benefit from it. I don't think that many realize who
Rick Turner is and and the magnitude of his taking even a minute to post
anything at a forum....let alone such revealing and hard earned
knowledge. If you're one of those, you need to get near some of his
instruments in order to appreciate and understand the quality that he's
capable of achieving. What other industry will you find where some of the
industry leaders will offer what may be considered "trade secrets" to an
open and public forum?

    Thanks, Rick, for your generosity and willingness to further the craft
that we all love. Your experience and the list of folks you've built
instruments for speak for themselves and I'm sure that some others here
are as humbled as I am that you'd offer it all to us to apply as we see fit.

     This is a great thread of information and I'm glad to have been able to
contribute a little to it.

All the best,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:20 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Thanks, Kevin.

I've long sought a forum that would attract top level pros as well as being interesting and welcoming to dedicated amateurs. This is it, and I think it will only get better.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:36 am 
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Koa
Koa

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Well, I am very grateful for Rick's(everyone really)offerings, they are greatly appreciated...thanks to all who have shared, this is information that may have taken years of trial and error to find, may never have stumbled upon it actually, so I for one say thanks again!!

Cheers,
Greg

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:11 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 6:35 am
Posts: 1325
Location: Kings Mtn., NC, USA
First name: Bill
Last Name: Greene
City: Kings Mountain
State: North Carolina
Zip/Postal Code: 28086
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ditto on all the "thanks" to everyone, especially Rick.

I did have an opportunity to see one of Rick's guitars at a guitar show in Charlotte this past weekend. I think it was an RS-6...it has the unique bridge. I didn't play it, but myself another OLFer and I looked it over carefully.

It's a beautiful instrument, and appeared to be exquisite workmanship. We thought about this thread while looking at the guitar.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:14 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

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Posts: 404
Location: United States
rick, Just wondered if you are using the polyester clear over the West System Epoxy? If so, are you using a sealer between the two?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:30 am 
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Koa
Koa

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Posts: 1667
For sure, a great thread(good eough that it made me sign back up... <g>)

  I thought that it was worth taking a moment to let those who had read

it know that this should never occur when you sand a top and should

never be an issue.


Actually, this has been done for centuries, and still today, on purpose, on  violins. It won't occur if you don't want it to, as in your case, but it can if you wish it to. Simply use a softer backing for your abrasive and go to at least 320. There are many ways to go about anything. Another example: I have freaked out a cabinet making buddy when he dropped by one day; after I had finished fine sanding the entire guitar to 320, I took a hard block with fresh 80 grit paper on it, and ran it with the grain, on the top, and without touching it('cept for blowing the dust off) shot a sealer coat of shellac. He lost it! He thought I was pulling his leg, and would go back and re-do all of this when he left(I did it while he was there because i wanted to finish up and leave), but that -is- how i do -some- tops. If the top has no nothing going for it when sanded smooth(no silk, dead-even color, etc...{you know, wallpaper grade}), doing the above allows light to play in the sanding marks, and adds interest. No, you can't see the sanding marks(if you do this correctly), but the roughed surface is much, much more interesting when struck by light.

Lotsa ways to skin the kitty...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:36 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Mario facets his tops!

I shoot an isolator (currently McFadden's Rosewood Sealer) over anything and everything before I shoot poly; I shoot on one mist coat so as not to lift my press-on decals or dissolve and lift stain, and then shoot a decent coat over that several hours later. I do this over Waterlox, over West Epoxy, over stain, over whatever. Oils from rosewood or cedar play havoc with curing polyester, and I just don't want to chance it with anything else, so I use it as my universal sealer. So do some of the big boys like Bob Taylor.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:22 pm 
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Cocobolo
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Posts: 404
Location: United States

Thanks again Rick. Thats the R-1704 Rosewood sealer and the R-1775 polyester?



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:51 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
facets his tops!


Hah! There's a name to the technique? Well.... another feature to up-charge for <bg>

Say, Waterlox is rare as, well, rare, up here. As-in, forget finding it.. So, I found some tung oil early this week, and took home a little can and wiped-on a few coats on some random scraps to test with. Stuff won't dry on Cocobolo. Does Waterlox dry on Coco, or dos it remain somewhat gummy???




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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:22 pm 
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Koa
Koa

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Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Waterlox does dry, though slower.

I'm now experimenting with West Systems epoxy pore fill...well, I'm beyond just experimenting and doing it. I just did some ukes that will wind up thusly:
Waterlox, one coat
West Systems epoxy, brushed on, credit card squeegeed off
Sand to wood surface
Waterlox
Rosewood sealer, two coats...that's where I am tonight
3 coats polyester
Sand and then satin urethane or gloss rubout depending on the order


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:31 pm 
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Koa
Koa

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Posts: 1667
I'll give the tung more time and see where it goes... maybe some japan drier is called-for.

Why the Waterlox under the epoxy? Epoxy "wets" wood like crazy, so it seems like the Waterlox would be redundant?

 Some folks use the polyester as the pore fill, and top coat with nitro, yet you're still using another pore filler? That it fills pores so nicely is another reason to love it, for me. So.... Why the epoxy? Are you trying to minimize  spray booth time, even if it takes a bit more bench time? Just seems, well, unnecessary, but I'm sure you found a reason(that I'm not seeing).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Koa
Koa

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Location: United States
Mario, I'm working through the Waterlox or not Waterlox with the epoxy. I agree that it does not seem necessary, and the McFadden roswood sealer does seem to wet the wood identically to the epoxy.   Yes, I'm epoxy pore filling to try to reduce spray booth time and the total number of coats of polyester from six down to three or four (thin) on natural gloss jobs.   I still think I need the Waterlox on my stain bursts to lock in the metal acid dye.   So I'm really working through to two or three different finish/spray schedules depending on whether I'm going natural or stained, gloss or satin on the different parts. Right now it looks like necks may not need the pore fill...there's something about the contour that accepts coats of polyester differently than flat surfaces. So it's really about how I deal with backs, sides, and tops...and then it also depends on the woods used.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:20 pm 
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Walnut
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How bout some thanks to the guy who started the thread???





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