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This has plagued me for years, and I wonder if any of you have found a solution for it?

On any of my guitars, factory or handmade, there is always the problem with the B string. It can be in perfect tune in an open postion and in perfect tune at the 12th fret also. When playing in standard tuning, especially the chords of C, Am, sometimes D and F, it sounds out of tune. Just so ever bit out of tune, but enough to nag me.

The frets are in perfect alignment and none of the other strings have this phenomena. If it were out of tune at the 12th fret, I would say that adjusting the saddle would cure it, but at the 12th fret it is perfect. Nowhere except the first and second frets does this problem exist and ONLY on the B string.

I have heard that some players detune their B string slightly to accomodate this, but then when the string is played in an open position it sounds out of tune.

Has anyone come up with a solution to this issue?

I know I am not the only one who has experienced this.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Sure, make a compensated nut.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Hince the reason most saddels are compensated as much as .045" to the long side on the "B" string.

And I still want an explanation of what happens when you put on a capo.   What I usually hear or read is along the lines of "Well, you see...ummmm, errr...well it's about the string stretch...ummm, harrumph...no, it's because of the tempered system and we're trying to make 3rd and 6ths better at the expense of 4ths and 5ths...Oh, capo?...ummmm, well real guitar players don't use capos...well, you see, this is about different degrees of...ummm.   I don't know."

One of the issues is that the harmonic series from a stiffer string...as in the plain B vs. the wound G...is different. Upper partials are going ever more sharp and that effect is made worse by string stiffness.   So one of the issues is that the timbre of the typical B is harsher and sharper sounding than the G.

I'm working on it, but I think it's a string solution, not a scale compensation issue.

My first paragraph is about alternative scale comp systems in general...

Realizing that I am throwing an orange into the apple barrel, is it a similar situation to the G string on a Classical guitar, or a whole other phenomenon?  Or is that more of a compensation issue?

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Waddy

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Sound Clips of most of my guitars

What I've heard is the B string isn't stretched as tight making it change pitch
more when you press it down to fret a note?
I could be way off here but it kind of makes sense.

Thanks for all of he replies! I actually got a good lead from Hesh. It wasnt on the Buzz Feiten system (never did figure out what he was selling for $350) but rather a link from that page to Mike Doolin's web page on intonation. He goes wayyyyyy overboard in describing why this happens, but he acknowledges that it *IS* an issue.

I spent the whole afternoon reading all of his explanation (7 or 8 long pages of reading and illustrations) and the one thing that kept ringing in my ears was that the better a guitar resonates, the more pronounced this phenomenon is. I will buy that theory as this is more pronounced on the more resonant guitars that I have and also the ones I build. Also, it would stand to reason that if the fret were misplaced, then when the guitar is capo'd on the first fret this would continue up the neck. It does not, so that blows the theory that a simple compensation solves the problem. (Thanks for bringing this up Rick!)

The Buzz Feiten guy seemed to think the solution was to shave the end of the fingerboard on the treble side by about 1/32" and then you would have a compensated nut as well as a compensated saddle. I dont buy into that at all..... sorry. If the compensation of the saddle was wrong, then it would not be in perfect pitch at the 12th fret. By changing the saddle location or the nut location, you are in effect changing the scale length of the string.

 In my early years I had a guitar with a saddle that was not compensated correctly, and the frets all up and down the neck were out of tune. I know how and why to compensate the saddle and I am sure that my template perfectly matches that of Martin Guitars for this exact scale. If it were wrong, then they wouldnt be putting the saddle in the location they do. I also know that the action at the first fret is as close as I can get to the fingerboard, so an undue amount of stretching of the string isnt the issue either. I have not explored the possibility that simply changing to a slightly heavier or lighter string may solve the problem. This is something that is worth the effort to try and I will do it.

I appreciate any other ideas or opinions on this subject!

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Reguards,

Ken H

One step is to not use an electronic tuner for each string, just for the the high E, then all tuning is taken from that.

I've posted it before but this is a great way to tune.


First:- tune 1st to E using reference tone or electronic tuner.                   

Second:- tune 6th to first using harmonic at 5th fret of 6th string. (this is an octave harmonic and is in tune.)                              

Third:- instead of sounding the harmonic on the 7th fret of the 5th string, fret it there and tune it by ear to the open 1st. (If you can, fret the string with the index finger of your right hand while sounding it with the thumb allowing both notes to sound together.
                                                   
Fourth:- fret the 4th string at the 2nd fret and tune by ear to the open 1st string (octave).        &nb sp;     

Fifth:- Fret the 3rd string at the 9th and tune by ear to the open 1st.         &n bsp;         &n bsp;         &n bsp; 

Sixth:- fret the second string at the fifth fret and tune it by ear to the open 1st.         &n bsp;         &n bsp;    

In this way all the strings are tuned to fretted notes and contain the amounts of "out-of-tuneness" specified by the equal temper system. If you successfully follow this method of tuning you will be pleasantly surprised to notice one day that you don't seem to have had that tuning problem with the 2nd and 3rd strings that used to drive you nuts. The major third interval (which is what G to B is) is the one carrying the largest adjustment and should be flat enough that it "beats" 8 times a second. If you listen carefully in a quiet room you should hear it.

If you don't trust your ears or don't have access to someone with perfect pitch, then use an electronic tuner for all strings using the above system, just use high E all of the time!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin, don't know why you wouldn't have tried it, but have you ever used this method?

Tune 1(E) with a tuner or to low E however you get it.
Tune 4@2nd fret(E) to the 12th harmonic of 1(E)
Tune 3@7th fret(D) to the 12th harmonic of 4(D)
Tune 2@3rd fret(D) to the 12th harmonic of 4(D)
Tune 1@34d fret(G) to the 12th harmonic of 3(G)
Tune the 12th fret harmonic of 5(D) to 3@2nd fret(A)

It is supposed to temper everything too.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I am dyslexic:

Tune 1(E) with a tuner or to low E however you get it.
Tune 3@2nd fret(E) to the 12th harmonic of 1(E)
Tune 4@7th fret(D) to the 12th harmonic of 3(D)
Tune 5@3rd fret(D) to the 12th harmonic of 3(D)
Tune 6@34d fret(G) to the 12th harmonic of 4(G)
Tune the 12th fret harmonic of 2(D) to 4@2nd fret(A)

There!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Last one should be

Tune the 12th fret harmonic of 5(A) to 4@2nd fret(A)

Gosh!   

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

There are really three issues here:
1) The very concept of tempered tuning which attempts to make all 11 chromatic keys equally out of tune and thus all share the same note frequencies.

2) String stretch when pressing down which may or may not be a different stretch factor at each fret on the neck.

3) String stiffness which throws harmonics sharp and which prevents the nodes (nut, fret positions, bridge saddle) from truly being in line with the theoretical node point for a one dimensional string with no stiffness which is the basis of the theoretical harmonic series of straight multiples of the fundamental frequency.

Still wrong

Tune the 12th fret harmonic of 2(A) to 4@2nd fret (A)
It was right in the edit, I just forgot to change the (D) to (A)

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Thanks for the tip Colin!

I tried this and it does seem to help with the phenomenon. The resulting open strings dont necessarily agree with the digital tuner, but perhaps this is a solution that will work. Most all chords do sound better using this method so maybe it compensates all of the strings so that it hides the B string being sharp.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Tuning a guitar can take years to master. I've been playing for almost 30 years and have a fair amount of music education (including ear training) and music teaching under my belt, and I'm still refining my tuning skill and technique. Getting it to sound just the right amount out of tune all over the fretboard so that it sounds in tune all over the fretboard is a skill that doesn't come over night, even if you've been taught a tuning method like the ones described here (I have my own). And every guitar is a bit different. The challenge of this makes it evident why somebody like Buzz Feiten can sell his system, but I've never believed that the real solution is anywhere but in learning to tune. It's an ear training thing.

OTOH, If improvements in strings can make things a bit easier or sound a bit better, great. I really don't think the solution is some complicated or proprietary compensation system, though.    

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

Thanks for the tip Colin!

I tried this and it does seem to help with the phenomenon. The resulting open strings dont necessarily agree with the digital tuner, but perhaps this is a solution that will work. Most all chords do sound better using this method so maybe it compensates all of the strings so that it hides the B string being sharp.

[/QUOTE]

Open strings won't be spot on but the overall effect all over the board will be much better.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

having tried most things, tuning to the chord type you're mostly playing is just about the only things that works for me, assuming the bridge is in the right place etc.
So many customers seem offended at the thought of having to tune their guitar in between songs i sometimes wonder how they cross the road. All part of the learning process though i guess, you dont know until you know.
any furthering of the cause you guys can shed light on is very gratefully taken in, but it seems fair enough to have to tune to the song so to speak, and bend some chords into tune as required on the fly, doesnt it?
 (excuse my heathen ignorance by the way!)

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www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

Hummm?? to tune to pitch or to tune to an acceptable temperament? This is the question! Whether it is nobler to play in tune only in the open position or shun the slings arrows of perfect pitch and accept the facts of even temperament.

Back in my younger performing days I would tune 1st and 6th to PITCH Then do a stand open tuning tune up. followed by a harmonic tuning at 5th and 7th frets (The B required 4th-6th pinch harmonics) then moderate the discrepancy of the B at the 12th harmonic to be just a tad flat. This seemed to set thing up pretty good for me.

All fretted instruments have some pitch issue cause by both the pitch scale not being as truly linear as the division of the scale in a straight fretted fretboard and the fact that the tension on the strings increase as we fret them. Also how perfect you are about pressing dead perpendicular to the sting? Humm?? This too will effect the pitch of a note. The B string on a EADGBE tuned guitar is not a phenomenon it is a known issue.

Even if you use the tuning methods described above, you will still have to make adjustments depending on what key you will play in.

The equally-tempered fretting system of a guitar favors in-tune fifths and fourths at the expense of out of tune thirds. As a result, I tune differently when I play in G major where I prefer nice, sweet b naturals, so I lower the b string just a bit. But when I play in D (major or minor)I will bring the b string up slightly so I have a perfectly in tune d octave and I may even lower the high e just a touch to sweeten the f# of a D major chord. Just as much of an issue for me is the low e string. Typically, if I tune a nice E major chord, the bottom G of a G major chord is out of tune (sharp). I have been playing stringed instruments for way longer than I have been building, and the search for good intonation has been never-ending.   

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Kevin Mason
Mason Guitars and Ukuleles on Facebook
http://masonguitars.net

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] And I still want an explanation of what happens when you put on a capo.
[/QUOTE]

What happens is the capo becomes the nut, but usually a better height-adjusted nut than the one at the end of the board. This can reduce the need for nut compensation. But it doesn't eliminate it. Without it, a string in tune open and at the 12th fret will play a bit sharp on the first few frets. This still happens with a capo; just less because of the new "nut" being right at fret height. The greater inharmonicity of the B string is a separate issue.

What kind of explanation are you seeking and not getting?

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]
I'm working on it, but I think it's a string solution, not a scale compensation issue.[/QUOTE]

We begin with strings that don't play in tune with themselves on a single note--the harmonics ring progressively sharper. Then the issues multiply. Yet there are players who seem to be able to play in tune (Jody Stecher comes to mind). There won't be a string solution until you can make a string with zero stiffness. If there's a solution, it's a player solution.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

There are string problems, with stiffness and stretch, as Rick points out. There is the problem of equal temperament, which trades off equal sized semitones and the ability to modulate for always being a little out of tune. There are player problems, with people putting different pressure on the strings and not tuning correctly. There are also guitar problems, with the top feeding back at the strings at certain pitches, and causing them to go out of tune. None of these problems can be solved completely. Suck it up.

:o)