Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 10:54 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:36 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Howard, precisely. The capo issue is not answerable in the Feiten system. And if the problem is that the string slots aren't properly cut in the nut...leading to the strings being too hight...then it's a luthier problem.   

Also one of the issues is that we love those in tune 4ths and 5ths with fretted and open strings. The suggestion to intentionally mis-tune open strings is part of the Feiten formula, and it can help depending on what keys you favor.

I did an incredibly compensated nut once for a guy who only played in C and G and it was glorious as long as you didn't stray far.   

I like Al's comment. Suck it up.

Many great players just tweak the notes into harmonicity with fretting finger pressure. I've not found the super freak intonation nuts to be the best players of my clientel...



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:59 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

Just to show you how it goes.....


I had a potential customer (bluegrass kind of guy) show up today to inspect the Ash guitar on which the fingerboard isnt even glued down yet. I just bolted the neck on and set it up sort of temporarily so I could hear what it sounded like. Anyway, he played the guitar and loved it! Last thing he said was that he had to go talk to his wife about buying it. I'm sure he will be back with the cash. To me, the guitar sounded awful with that pesky B string being sharp, but he didnt seem to hear it or mind that it was out. It drives me nuts.


I guess the problem may also be in the ear of the listener too.


 


_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:33 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
I'm on about page 30 of what was to be a short article intended to
demystify temperament and intonation for the average guitarist. I haven't
even gotten to touch on application directly to fretted instruments yet.....

I'd still like to cram it down to a 6-8 page read, but I really feel there are
some historical and technical details that players need to know if they
really want to understand how all the snake oil.. I mean smoke and
mirrors... er, um, I mean proprietary tuning/intonation systems really
work, kind of...

Short answer, make sure your nut height is appropriate, which is
something far too few techs and builders seem to know how to do.
Compensated nuts in the .010"-.020" range can be good for some
playing styles, but not all, and much beyond that and they can cause
other problems. Then most of all is simply tuning it right. If you tune an
open G chord to sound perfectly natural, don't expect your open C,D or E
chords to be even bearable. You can't do it on a piano, and you can't do it
on a guitar.

It certainly gets much more complicated then that when you really get in
to how strings and resonators vibrate, the underlying flaws of our scale,
and how our ears and minds determine what is harmonious. For the time
being, cut your nut slots to a good low height, make sure your frets are in
the right place and round, and tune to octaves or unisons, not intervals or
harmonics. Then, like said repeatedly above, suck it up. It's 3rds and
6ths.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:44 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Or go to India and learn an instrument that is not intended to be chromatic AND played in different keys without actually moving the frets...which they do on sitars and vinas. Or play a fretless instrument.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:12 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

Just out of curosity, do any of you use a double compensated bridge? If so, how does this affect the intonation?


What I am talking about is a split bridge where it is actually 2 pieces of bone. The low E, A and D are compensated as normal and then the G,B and upper E are compensated separately with a totally different piece of bone.


I know I have seen this done, but I am unsure of the overall effect it has on the guitar's intonation.


_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:33 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Ukiah, CA
A zero fret takes the guesswork out of slotting the nut as long as the frets are level.

_________________
Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:37 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Ken, I suspect you mean one saddle section for the high E and B, and another for the G, D, A, and low E.   Unless you're talking unwound G...which makes everything much worse in the intonation department.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:12 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 1209
Location: Ukiah, CA
Rick, some have said that intonation problems are caused to a degree by the depth of the nut slots and I was just saying that a zero fret makes that uniformly low. Then fretting at the first position won't cause as many intonation problems there. Though a good set up is just as nice.

If an eighth inch saddle isn't in the right place to compensate then I suppose a split saddle or as some use, a wider saddle, would work well. But I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

_________________
Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:08 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2005 3:32 am
Posts: 2683
Location: Ithaca, New York, United States
[QUOTE=David Collins] tune to octaves or unisons, not intervals or
harmonics. [/QUOTE]

Bingo. However, intervals and harmonics can be useful in tuning, also, as long as you don't expect them to be beat-free, but rather, learn to recognize how fast they should be beating.

My final check is playing about a half dozen chords to see that they all sound good, none better than any others.

I generally don't have any trouble, then, playing in all keys and sounding in tune, although I do occasionally make a tiny adjustment somewhere to make a given chord sound more pure if it's going to be used a lot in a given song. I also find I sometimes have to adjust things a smidge when putting on a capo.

IMHO, all guitar instruction should include a lot more attention to tuning (and ear training in general). I'm always amazed by how few players have even begun to learn how to actually tune their guitars.

_________________
Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:13 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

2 pieces of bone. The low E, A and D are
compensated as normal and then the G,B and upper E are compensated
separately with a totally different piece of bone.

[/QUOTE]

I assume that was a slip or typo, because as Rick indicated, the break
would come between the last wound and first plain string, usually the G/B
on acoustic guitars. They are often referred to a split saddles.

I know several makers who make split saddle bridges, but I've never been
a fan. First is lack of necessity. A 1/8" saddle is more than ample room to
make any compensation needed for just about any guitar. 3/32" is plenty
if it is angled and positioned properly. There is at least 10 cents of usable
compensation range within a 3/32", and 14 or 15 cents in an 1/8" saddle.
That's just compensation difference between two strings of course, and
the angle of the saddle sets the mean so to speak. If you find a split
saddle guitar with good intonation and trace out a series of dots for the
six intonation points (ignoring the outline of the saddles), you will
virtually always be able to fit those points within a .070" line that could be
built within a single well placed saddle.

Second problem is setups - not that it's terribly difficult, but it's
just an unnecessary complication. Raising or lowering a saddle a bit on
one or both sides is usually so simple, but with a split saddle you have to
manipulate both the saddles just so to maintain the radius. Again it's not
a huge deal, but when doing a setup I may occasionally curse it as a
completely unnecessary pain in the butt.

Third problem is pickup if a customer specifically wants an under saddle
transducer. There are plenty of other options today, but many players still
like the convenient plug'n'play, low feedback, cheap, "sounds good
enough for anywhere I would play" saddle transducers. Baggs ribbon is
one of the few offered for split saddles, and I've never been a huge fan of
those.

That leaves aesthetics as the sole reason for split saddle in my
experience, and since I don't care for the looks of them it's pretty simple
choice for me. It wouldn't have anything at all to do with the first position
chord problems we've been talking about anyway.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:35 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

Thanks for all of he replies! I actually got a good lead from Hesh. It wasnt on the Buzz Feiten system (never did figure out what he was selling for $350) but rather a link from that page to Mike Doolin's web page on intonation. He goes wayyyyyy overboard in describing why this happens, but he acknowledges that it *IS* an issue.


The Buzz Feiten guy seemed to think the solution was to shave the end of the fingerboard on the treble side by about 1/32" and then you would have a compensated nut as well as a compensated saddle. I dont buy into that at all..... sorry. If the compensation of the saddle was wrong, then it would not be in perfect pitch at the 12th fret. By changing the saddle location or the nut location, you are in effect changing the scale length of the string.


 I appreciate any other ideas or opinions on this subject!

[/QUOTE]

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:49 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
I guess I should add tonal arguments (separating plain from wound
strings to some degree) to aesthetics before a pile of rebuttals to my
post.Still, I view end results of this as a debatable aspect regarding tone
and intonation, but the arguments are out there. The most common
problems for first position chords discussed here are still nut height and
tuning practices anyway.

I must say that I am quite intrigued by Rick's post above.
[QUOTE=Rick Turner] I'm working on it, but I think it's a string solution,
not a scale compensation issue.[/QUOTE]

I agree very much that a better solution would be in the string design
than the scale and it's compensations. It seems like a pretty daunting task
though, to design a string set with more favorable harmonics and
overtones for intonation while still retaining those responsible for the
familiar timbre many players desire. Classical players of course are much
more familiar with choosing string combinations for intonation, but the
steel string market hasn't really had the range of choice to achieve this
end that I know of.

I'm sure this is just one pet project among many for you Rick, but if you
get anywhere with it I would be be very interested to hear about it.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:53 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States
[QUOTE=Dave-SKG][QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

Thanks for all of he replies! I actually got a good lead from Hesh. It wasnt on the Buzz Feiten system (never did figure out what he was selling for $350) but rather a link from that page to Mike Doolin's web page on intonation. He goes wayyyyyy overboard in describing why this happens, but he acknowledges that it *IS* an issue.


The Buzz Feiten guy seemed to think the solution was to shave the end of the fingerboard on the treble side by about 1/32" and then you would have a compensated nut as well as a compensated saddle. I dont buy into that at all..... sorry. If the compensation of the saddle was wrong, then it would not be in perfect pitch at the 12th fret. By changing the saddle location or the nut location, you are in effect changing the scale length of the string.


 I appreciate any other ideas or opinions on this subject!


[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]


Well I guess by your response you don't REALLY "appreciate any other ideas or opinions..."


Let me clarify a few things tho:


1) what I am selling (not Buzz Feiten himself) is my ability to utilize a system and apply it to anyone's guitar. The system is the Buzz Feiten Tunning System. It cost me approximately $5k to travel to L.A.take the class and get "certified". The fee I charge isn't for a nut,saddle,or magic bean...it's for the time I spend to intonate your guitar using BFTS. By the way if talk to Mike Doolin what he says, and what hee does to his guitars is right on with the BFTS.


2) I consider Mike Doolin to be a foremost authority on Intonation, among other aspects of guitar building. Again if read his thesis on the topic you will note he does advocate adjusting the distance from the nut to the first fret in order to correct problems of tension/ sharpness in this area.


3)Buzz Feiten does not advocate just chopping off a given amount at the nut. It is much more complicated than that and is a different amount on every guitar. Perhaps you are confused with taylor guitars or even martin whom I understand now take off a "standard" amount off of every neck.


4) Most importantly...no one else has come up with a system that comes close to BFTS and marketed it to the general luthier public. None that I have tested either worked as well or was as complete. But my main point being...available to you and me to use. Yes i am sure Rick and Ervin and Rebbecke, and others have systems...but they are THEIR systems and we can't go "learn" them anywhere.


5) before you knock a system...really find out about it. People like Vai, Satriani, Robben Ford, and Larry Carlton and thousands of others swear by the system. I asked Larry Carlton recently, if he really liked and used the system or was it just a paid endorsement type thing. He told me "he wasn't paid, and he usues it on his top four guitars, on the road and in the studio...he would never consider going on tour without it! " Tha'ts pretty impressive to me. Larry is an incredible player and has a fantastic ear...in MHO.


So now you know just "what it is that I am selling for $350"


_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:57 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States
correction #3 "neck" s/b "fretboard at the nut"

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:26 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:53 pm
Posts: 2198
Location: Hughenden Valley, England
[QUOTE=David Collins] [QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]

2 pieces of bone. The low E, A and D are
compensated as normal and then the G,B and upper E are compensated
separately with a totally different piece of bone.

[/QUOTE]


I know several makers who make split saddle bridges, but I've never been
a fan. First is lack of necessity. A 1/8" saddle is more than ample room to
make any compensation needed for just about any guitar. 3/32" is plenty
if it is angled and positioned properly. There is at least 10 cents of usable
compensation range within a 3/32", and 14 or 15 cents in an 1/8" saddle.
That's just compensation difference between two strings of course, and
the angle of the saddle sets the mean so to speak. If you find a split
saddle guitar with good intonation and trace out a series of dots for the
six intonation points (ignoring the outline of the saddles), you will
virtually always be able to fit those points within a .070" line that could be
built within a single well placed saddle.

[/QUOTE]

David,

One thing that a split saddle has going for it is that the string intonation points pretty much sit in the middle of the saddle(s) and hence you don't need to file the top of the saddle to a complicated shape with some strings at the front, some in the middle and some at the back. If the geometry of the guitar "alters" at a future date you have wriggle room forwards and backwards on all strings. I also like the look. Fishman sells a split saddle under saddle pickup (or used to) which were designed for Lowdens.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:18 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

Thanks for the replies. I did mean a split saddle, not a split bridge... a slip at 1:12am after a lengthy day and late "away" high school football game. we lost, by the way.  I have just seen the split saddles and not paid a whole lot of attention to them, so I wasnt sure where the split actually occured. It makes sense to have them split after the wound strings though. Thanks for that correction!


Dave Bland,


Even with your lengthy explanation, I still have no clue what a $350 intonation job would buy me. I see no pictures of it, even a descriptive picture painted with words. I explored the web site at the link that Hesh supplied and still havent found one picture. If you have pictures of one of your systems, I would love to see what it is that you are doing!


I have had a few interesting phone calls since I started this thread and this subject has come up on a few of them. right now it seems to me that simply placing a zero fret as close to the nut as possible  but only on the B and E strings and at the same time file the saddle so that the B and E strings rest on the saddle on the back side of the saddle would solve most player's problems. Of the players that I seem to attract, they rarely use anything above the 7th fret, at least for playing chords where intonnation would be most noticable.


_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:22 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States

Ken Hodges,


I don't know what you charge to intonate an acoustic guitar but my price is $250. I charge $350 to put BFTS on the guitar. Most people opt for the BFTS as it's only $100 more and includes a new Bone nut. It's not !00% perfect but when done properly, it results in a better sounding, more in tune instrument. It isn't a magic saddle or device ( like earvana) but rather a "system" that is comprised of 1)a properly filed New Nut and it's re-positioning/placement, 2) slightly altered tunning 3) a saddle that is intonated to BFTS specs. Each string being seperately intonated to Buzz's specs.


Most people who are seeking out the system are doing so because they have played a guitar somewhere, that already has the system, and can hear a difference. So pics don't sell the job. It's sold before I ever get the job. But you are right pictures of the process should be there. It would be helpful.


my site was recently ,completely re-done, so if there are no pictures I need to get some. I used to have pics of the whole process. In fact if you go back several issues of Guitar Maker Magazine I did a whole article on the system and how/what is done. With Pictures!


p.s. Tom Anderson believes in the system so much that when he first started using it, he made a corporate decision to re-call, at his expense, all of the thousands of guitars he previously built and retro-fit the system ( at his expense) on them. That's pretty impresive to me, not to mention costly. I know he believes in the system...


 


_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:04 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:52 am
Posts: 74
Location: United States
first post on this nice forum...

my experience on this issue is based upon playing the guitar for about 30 years...the limit of my experience in lutherie is setting up my own guitars to my specific tastes...that being said, the following is the way I approach intonation and tuning of my instruments...

for intonation I simply use an electronic tuner to make the picking of the open string to be an octave below its 12th fret frequency...

for tuning in standard format I use a tuner to set the open D string to its proper frequency, then I tune most of the other strings by ear to THIS D string...

in depth:

1) tune open D with tuner
2) tune A string to D string using harmonics and fretting A string of 5th fret and also D string on 7th fret (trying to find a nice balance)
3) tune G string to D using harmonics, fretting G string on 2nd and 7th frets
4) tune B string to D by fretting B on the 3rd fret
5) tune high E to the B string, then dial in by fretting on the 3rd fret and playing to the open G string
6) tune low E to the G string by fretting on 3rd fret

repeat to verify that you are in pitch and relative tune


for alternate tunings I approach in the same manner..which is to tune by ear to one string that is tuned to pitch with a tuner..the ONE string is chosen as the one that can most easily be 'mastered' to the rest...e.g. in an open E tuning I will use the D string which has been raised to an E as the 'tonal centerpoint'....

I've read about tuners that enable you to set into memory tuning patterns, and once one has set up a guitar to play in tune it should be possible to enter this specific set of frequencies into said tuner so that future tuning is easy as pie!





Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 5:52 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:05 am
Posts: 9191
Location: United States
First name: Waddy
Last Name: Thomson
City: Charlotte
State: NC
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Welcome to the OLF, Mike!  Glad to have another opinion around. 

Since we are on this subject, and there seem to be many variables, does anyone have an opinion on the Gilbert fret and fingerboard adjustments relative to playing in tune?  Here is the article I was reading.  It is on  Dave Schramm's website.


_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:40 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
Tuning and intonation can become an obsession...and obsession that gets in the way of simply playing great music. When I think of music and musicians who have really moved me, I come to realize that intonation is in their fingertips.   Did Jimi Hendrix even bother to tune? Ry Cooder would come into Westwood Music and pick up any guitar, hardly tune it, and play the greatest stuff and seemingly will the notes into pitch. I came to see and hear that there was more error in fretting hand pressure than in any guitar made reasonably well. And I'm sorry, but $250.00 to intonate a guitar seems...well, obsessive...and that's before it's Feitenized.

Practically all my clients use capos. Most want to be able to play and jam with just about anyone. Many use altered tunings regularly. Only a few are intonation obsessed, and most understand that chasing perfect intonation, harmonics, tuning, etc. is a losing game.

I've got all the Feiten info...the programs, the instruction stuff, all that (and totally legitimately), and I just don't have clients asking for it, nor am I such a believer that I try to sell it. For one thing, a player must have a Feiten-calibrated tuner for tuning open strings the right degrees of flat and sharp. For another, they are locked into string gauges forever unless they want the guitar redone. It just gets too restrictive...too specific for most of my customers.

Here's a funny one...about 12 years ago Buzz participated in an intonation panel at Healdsburg. He borrowed my Ramirez 1a in order to have a "credible" classical guitar to demo. When he strobed that guitar he found that he could hardly do anything to it; it was 90% "there" right out of the case.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:25 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
The only opinion I have on that article is that the writing is atrocious.

If they could rewrite it using terms already in common use rather than
unnecessarily created and confusing terms it would be much more
readable. Why invent horribly disconnected terms like "Board Basis", and
"Basic String Length", and "Saddle Setback Dimension", when scale length,
speaking length, total string length, and compensation are already fairly
standardized (and much more intuitively understood). Sorry, but the
writing itself simply prevents me from wanting to wade through it.

Everyone who wants to be involved in this field just really needs to
educate themselves a bit on tuning, temperament and intonation. Find a
copy of John Meffen's "Guide to Tuning Musical Instruments" as a good
place to start and read it cover to cover. There are plenty of other good
books out there on the subject (I probably have at least a dozen books in
my personal library strictly on tuning and temperament), but this one is a
good all around course. Then as Rick said, don't get too obsessed with it.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:35 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States

Rick,


I agree with much of what you said but some i disagree with...


1) i don't find it too cumbersome to remember the feiten settings


2) as far as using a tuner...no special tuner is needed...any chromatic tuner that is fairly accurate cn be used to tune up. I often use a $25 Korg (l.e.d. model ) Yes I use a peterson strobe ( a real strobe) to set the intonation but that's just my own anal retentiveness.


3) You can go up or down one gauge string without "ruining" the "sys". will it be as accurate as if you kept the same gauge on...No but still better than if you had done nothing because the nut has been moved and the guitar intonated ( and those two alone usually will fastly improve any factory set guitar...even without putting BFTS on it).


4) I remember the demonstration you spoke of regarding Buzz. I still have a video of it. But if you remember he did compare another guitar to the feitenized one and there was a vast difference. I think the fact that your guitar was so well intonated/playable was a tribute to it being your work ( or you got lucky...I banking on the first).


5) As far as my customers go...I don't push BFTS on anyone, I won't push a brand of strings or certain p/u's either. They, 90% of the time, come to me because I am listed on Feiten's Site as being a Licensed installer. I don't "sell" them.


6) Ah...price/cost...what is high to someone in Florida is Cheap in New York and so goes it around the world. Yes I charge $250 for intonating an acoustic guitar. If you wish to charge more or less who am I to challange that? Perhaps your 40+ years of experience allows you to do the job in 10 minutes. I spend a considerable amount more than that. Time that I could be charging for other repairs or building. My shop and overhead costs are different than yours. I can not debate the reasons for my fees, and I never negotiate them. I never appologize for them either. Anyone/everyone is told up front the cost and if is too high for the customer they are free to go elsewhere...no hard/soft feelings.


My point is that it is a system...good, bad, indifferent...I don't see anyone else comming up with one that can be taught to the luthier public and help alleviate this age long problem.


As far as top artists making good music, on out of tune guitars...ABSOLUTELY...I tell exactlythat to my customers all the time...they want to "sound like" their favorite artist. I explain the sound is in their fingers. Also, that's why Jimi was Jimi...he skill set is not the same as mine or yours. I need all the help I can get.


 I also remember selling many a guitar that I probably would have kept had the system been around back then. All my repair guy ( they weren't called luthiers or techs back then, at least not where I lived) could do was tell me to "live with it". Buzz makes living with  it a little easier.


_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:36 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
As far as costs go, I doubt that anyone other than Evan Gluck or any other New York based luthier has overhead much higher than I do here in Santa Cruz, CA. I still think that $250.00 to non-Feiten intonate a guitar is...well, on the high side. We do reasonable intonation jobs with every guitar we build and set up, and if the labor load was $250.00 just for intonation, I'd be out of business. We completely final assemble a guitar for less than that including making the nut and saddle, gluing on the bridge, bolting on the neck, putting on the tuners, and putting in the pickup(s) and electronics. I expect my setup guys to be able to take parts and finish off two guitars a day, including intonation.

You may remember Feiten settings for plus and minus cents on each string. My customers don't want to. They also don't complain about the intonation of our guitars unless they go to a drastic change in gauge or setup.

I'm just not a believer, that's all.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:56 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida

I'll be right up front and tell you that I dont do repairs in my shop.... at least I dont advertise that. I have been known to repair and properly set up friends guitars for free. Only close friends at that. I will set up a child's guitar for free also because I am so interested in seeing young people learn the art of guitar playing and I want them to have an easy playing guitar when they do it. I understand people not wanting to spend a lot of money on a guitar for a child until they are SURE that they will keep it up. There is no sense in that cheap guitars cant play easy, at least for a child that is learning.


I didnt want to start a luthier war either. It is interesting to know what people charge for doing setups though.


From all I have read so far on this, it seems that there is a market for someone to come up with a retrofit and properly intonated nut and saddle system (or an intonated zero fret system) that is reasonably priced and easy to install. Perhaps this is just another case of my entrepenuer mind spinning gears...


Again, thanks for the suggestions and posts on this issue. It has been MOST enlightening and informative!


Welcome to the forum Mike!


_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:39 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:04 am
Posts: 2060
[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars] From all I have read so far on this, it seems
that there is a market for someone to come up with a retrofit and
properly intonated nut and saddle system (or an intonated zero fret
system) that is reasonably priced and easy to install. Perhaps this is just
another case of my entrepenuer mind spinning gears..[/QUOTE]

Creating "properly intonated nut and saddle system" would be about as
groundbreaking as creating an integer square root of 17, or a perpetual
motion machine that generates power.

I know you were saying that somewhat in jest, but before anyone else
sets out to develop a new system, please, study what temperament and
tuning really is. There seems to be a new proprietary or patent applied
system every month at least. Each one tries fix what cannot be fixed
unless you have the ability to rewrite laws of mathematics and physics.
Take some time to study intonation and temperament. You could spend a
lifetime and write a few dissertations on it, and you still would not "solve"
the problems.

The closest I have seen would be a patent by PRS a few years ago,
involving a digital manipulation of pitches to meet their contexts (though
if I ever found the program in existence I would love to see how hard it
would be compose a trick piece in attempt to trip it up). I don't know if
they ever had intentions of incorporating this in to a guitar midi pitch-
shift system, but it's interesting at least.

When you're dealing with strings and wood there are so many strange
nuances that can be individual to an instrument. And that's just a few
variables added to an already imperfect system.
The best "system" for intonating an instrument is a technician who knows
what to listen for, and how to tailor the setup to a particular player and
instrument.

Any predetermined system is at best, a mean or average of
compensations or offsets found by a particular "inventor". They can also
be acceptable to good result from well intentioned, yet ignorant research
(Ptolemaic astronomy still works for nautical navigation). At worst they
are useless snake oil, but most often a combination of the above.

There is no perfect intonation on any instrument with predetermined
notes. An educated technician is the one who will be able to reach the
most appropriate range of compromise. An educated customer is the one
most likely to accept where limitations are, and also accept some
responsibility on their part to adjust to them.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com