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I have some guitars coming up where I want a nice, clean, solid black binding.  Unless there are some problems with fiber (color fading, layer separation maybe) it seems like a better use of resources.  Any thoughts?

I suppose plastic is an option but I'm somehow even more resistant to that.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I don't have much experience with it, and I'm sure others do, but the only objection I'd have is that the fiber probably offers nearly nil protection as it's much softer than the regular materials used.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Hi Kent,
I use various configurations of fiber for purflings (bwb, wbw, etc.), especially
when I want nice fine lines. I wouldn't want to use it for bindings, though. It
would likely start to delaminate over time, as it's not particularly hard. The
black plastic would actually stand up better in the long run. Solid black
ebony is probably the purists first choice, but pieces thick enough for
binding don't seem to bend that well, at least not for me. I may try again in
the future using Super Soft, but the last guitar I built with black bindings
were black plastic. Once under finish, it's almost impossible to tell the
difference. Just MHO.
Craig S.

Black fiber bindings are used by some very highly regarded builders with decades of experience. They may not advertise the fact that it's fiber and not ebony (though I don't know of anyone who would lie about it if asked). If anyone has actually had any problems with it delaminating or anything, I hope they will chime in here and let us know.

We had a discussion here not long ago (started by myself) about potential advantages and disadvantages of harder vs softer binding materials. My own working conclusion from that discussion (subject to change if I'm convinced otherwise) is that both harder (rosewoods, etc) and softer (fiber, koa, walnut, etc) binding materials could be said to have advantages in terms of protection of the guitar from impact. Though I don't personally have decades of guitar repair experience to prove it, common sense would suggest that a softer binding material would absorb shock better, thereby reducing the likelihood of cracks and damage in many instances. If anybody's experience suggests that that is clearly wrong, please speak up.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I am amazed and a bit taken aback that folks who have no experience using black or any other color fiber binding have such firm opinions about it. Come on now, guys! There is no room for speculation presented as fact on a forum like this one.   This is not a typing contest.

We use the black and white fiber binding that we get from Michael Gurian on ten or so instruments a month, and the stuff is just fine.   It's way harder than most wood binding other than ebony. It glues well with LMI white glue, it bends nicely, and it takes finish well. It also does not shrink with age. I greatly prefer it to plastic bindings in the colors we use.   There is a slight grain look to it if you sand through from one layer to the next, but that just makes it look more like real wood.

If any of you saw some of my Model 1 guitars at H'burg, what you saw was black fiber binding.    

Thanks all.  Yes, the stuff is hard and bends like a dream.

Rick, how long have you been using it?  No issues with delamination after a good ding?  (Or at least nothing worse than wood?)  Stays nice and black over time?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

No delamination, and I can't for the life of me think of why anyone would think there would be.   And this is with guitars that have gotten some very severe usage...Lindsey Buckingham.   I've been using the stuff for a good six or seven years now. Why wouldn't it stay black?

We have a tremendous binding challenge with our Model 1 electrics. Not only do we have tight bends around the profile of the guitar, but we also have a pretty dramatically carved cylindrical top and back...it's a 25 " (yes, inch) radius, so the binding has to match an undulating compound curve around the guitar.   

We dampen the binding with water to soften it and lightly tape it in place. It's allowed to dry for several hours and then we glue it in place with LMI white glue. We do the same with the fiber/wood rope purflings.

I use the white fiber on our new Model 1 "More Paul" gold top models...yeah, they're kind of like a Les Paul, but they're more...and under finish with a little (and I do mean little) bit of yellow toner in it, the color comes out as a beautiful off white cream.   

Sorry, guys, but I just don't understand the bad rap on this stuff.   But maybe that's because I seem to be the only one who has actually used it...   The fiber binding is fantastic.

Thanks Rick, good to know.

Don't know if you were talking to me but I was not trying to give it a bad rap.  Just trying to do my due diligence.

As to why I was concerned about delamination...I was assuming it was made up of laminated sheets.  If something is laminated, I think it's reasonable to at least ask the question about delaminating.  And in playing with it, delaminating (or splitting, as the case may be) is about the only way I can get it to fail.  Again, wasn't not knocking it, just asking a question about something I've never used.

As for why it wouldn't stay black, well I recently saw a guitar of mine from about 10 years ago and the nice dyed maple purflings (sold at the time as color fast) had faded dramatically.  Lots of things, including wood, change color with UV exposure.  Would hate to end up with a bunch of guitars with blue or gray binding 10 years down the road.  Again, seems a pretty reasonable question. 

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Kent, I just think that there's too much...well for the lack of another word "paranoia" about some materials, and yet with a little digging, the information is right there in front of your face. It's great to be cautious, but the only way any of us find out about "new" materials is to try them.

Black fiber...it's the same stuff used for more than fifty years to make Fender pickup bobbins. It's the same stuff used for longer than that to make drum and salesmen's sample cases...talk about tough!   Gibson has used it for decades for inlaid peghead overlays. It's one of the most tried and true materials in the modern music business; it's just that it's been used for other purposes than binding.   

I think vulcanized fiber is much more suitable as an edge protection than wood...which I know reeks of "hand lutherie"...but actually dings horribly. Wood binding is a nice aesthetic, but it's really a decorative choice; it's not about edge protection in any long term sense. Celluloid or ABS protect edges much better than wood binding, if protection is your goal.   But celluloid shrinks with time and ABS can look tacky and finish doesn't stick as well as you'd like it to.

Vulcanized fiber is one of the toughest materials that we have to work with, yet it works very easily in terms of tools and sanding, gluing and finishing.

I just see a knee-jerk reaction to stuff like this, and yet with a little digging, you can find out a lot about materials and their probable appropriate usage.   

Google "Vulcanized Fiber"    

I'm with Rick on the merits of the fiber.
Used it as far back as 10 years ago (from Gurian) on some of the guitars built by my "Senior Project" high school students. It was easier to bend (for them) and a lot less expensive than the ebony. And it came in lengths long enough to go all the way around the body, sans joint.
So far, it's still looking black, has not delaminated and takes the abuse you expect binding to take. Gurian also has it in sheets if you need to make any type of inlay/overlay in lieu of ebony.

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Hank Mauel

I have some black veneer, that seems pretty fragile to me, and I assumed it was the same stuff. Apparently not! I'll have to look into this.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I agree with Rick whole-heartedly. (Man did I really just say that? ) I've been using it for years on my soundports when the guitar is bound is ebony. It's more than a little trick to get .070 ebony to bend in a 1/2" radius. I just throw it in a hot pot with steaming water for a minute or so and it bends great.
I also agree with Rick in that this forum has taken a very dangerous turn for the worse in some areas. Posts that start with , "I don't have much experience with it, but.." is where that post should stop. Why would anyone post information about something that they have little or no experience with? Boggles the mind.
So Kent, to your original question: Yes, is can be used and is used all the time. Many archtops out there are using it, and I'm talking about the $15K guitars. I would take that as a testimonial that it's a viable product.

I've been using vulcanized fiber for years as binding. I find it harder than wood and it gives a nice clean consistent color. I don't buy laminated or "built up" material only the homogenous stuff. I buy it directly from the manufacturer to save costs. The only drawback is you have to buy a minimum order. Not a problem in our shop but if you're only going to use it on a couple of instruments don't go that route. I have had the same experience as Rick so I won't go into that. If you want exact specs on the material, a little digging will produce a lot of info.

Thanks for the info, all.  It's helpful to know that some folks have had some long history with it.  I've gotten in the habit of milling my own wood binding for years and have never had reason to consider or look into other materials.

I'm also curious if the stuff I got from Grizzly is the same as the stuff you are talking about.  It sure seems to be laminated from sheets as opposed homogenous.  See photo.

Rick, I'm little confused by your response.  You say...I just think that there's too much...well for the lack of another word "paranoia" about some materials, and yet with a little digging, the information is right there in front of your face.

It seems to be critical of asking an honest question in a forum designed to answer them.  This forum is right in front of my face and the place I chose to dig first.  Turned out once again to be a pretty efficient way of getting an answer.  For instance, it would have taken me a fair amount of digging just to find out that the trade name is vulcanized fiber.  Where better to start digging for guitar answers?

And I totally disagree with...It's great to be cautious, but the only way any of us find out about "new" materials is to try them.

One of the great things about just such a forum is the pooling of collective experience.  It makes it so we don't all have to make the same mistakes.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Kent, I don't have any business speaking for Rick but I'm pretty sure his comments weren't directed at you. At least that's the way I read it. I think he was directing them towards the two negative comments that followed your initial question.

I've used vulcanized black fiber as a laminate in my neck blanks. I purchased it in small quantities as 6" x 36" sheets from John Watkins or the Zootman. Check out their websites.

I've tried to cut the material into bindings but the bandsaw produces a rough edge. Does anyone have a good method other than buying it from Gurian?

Also, as far as de-laminating...the stuff you showed was probably not vulcanized. Look for the good stuff!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Scissors or a razor. Debur with a scraper.

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John Watkins
CNC Guitar Parts

Paul is correct; Kent, I was not referring to your post at all.

There were two negative opinions from folks who have never tried the stuff.

I get my stuff from Gurian, and it is a superior product. Obviously there's fiber and there's fiber.   Not all is created equal, but having known Michael Gurian for well over 30 years, I trust any products he uses and/or sells. His minimums are not outrageous for anyone serious about building guitars, and you can get samples from him. Why cheap out with iffy Grizzly supplies when you can get the real deal from a guy who has actually built more guitars than most of us here.

I agree with rick. I've been using Gurian's purflings for nearly 10 years. His products are top notch. Personally, I get binding stock from another supplier that will cut the stock to my specifications. I found it to be more cost effective to go through them. Unfortunately, they don't carry b/w/b, etc. for purflings.

[QUOTE=csullivan]...Solid black ebony is probably the purists first choice, but pieces thick enough for binding don't seem to bend that well, at least not for me. I may try again in the future using Super Soft, .....
[/QUOTE]

A couple of things on ebony as binding from my experiences. Binding thickness, if you order it, varies widely (pun intended). Thickness obviously comes into play when bending. I also have problems in the past bending ebony binding for guitars. I'm helping my son build a Uke with some ebony binding and we got a LOT of splitting in the waist on the ebony binding. I had to bend some new ones (for the Uke) and used the Supersoft II and they all bent perfectly. So if you're looking to ebony, Supersoft II works well.

That said, I plan to definitely look into the fiber.

Joe

Actually, the product I use is vulcanized cellulose (from recycled wood pulp). Once glued, this stuff is incredibly strong (as good or better than a wood to wood joint). My suggestion, if you want to buy directly from the manufacturer, is to call some , explain your needs and ask for samples. They want your business more than anything so they're typically very accomodating. If you want to go this route, try Willmington Fibre. If you just need a small amount or don't want to go through the hassel of doing the research, buy from someone like Gurian. If I were looking for fibre, I'd avoid the grizzly stuff.

I stand corrected.
Craig S.

Thanks for clearing that up Todd. The composition will depend on the manufacturer. Where do you get yours from?

I honestly think that the only reasons to use ebony instead of black fiber would be on an historical reproduction instrument, bragging rights, or the ability to get significantly more money for the instrument...which goes along with bragging rights. Objectively, I believe the black fiber binding that Gurian sells is a superior product for the purpose of edge binding a guitar.

That said, I used built up layers of .021" carbon fiber for binding on my latest guitar, and in that application the binding itself becomes a structural element, adding to the strength and stiffness of the guitar.

Another reason to use ebony is for the color ad grain; i choose my ebony bindings carefully, and always use pieces with slight color, and/or visible grain. Otherwise, if I'm after all black, it's plastics, simply because we can melt every seam into the next, for a simple, yet very clean look. 

That said, I'm very interested in fibers, having long used Gurian's purflings. I make many purflings in-house, and as i get better at it, I am making more all the time. At this point, I'd love to find black and white fiber sheets in various thickness and sizes. Is Wilmington Fibre Specialty Co.  the real deal, or is there another?