Official Luthiers Forum!

Well, after a looooong hiatus since moving, I've FINALLY got my shop moved and wired. Or at least power to it, there's still a lot of internal wiring that needs to be upgraded/re-engineered. But the first step to engineering the wiring is determining a rough shop layout. Here's where I need y'all's help.

I've drawn up a couple of plans in Sketchup (If you don't have this free download from Google, you owe it to yourself. It's awesome for a free product!). I'm attaching a couple of pics for your review, but if you are a Sketchup user, please go to the 3D Warehouse and download this model from their server (Just search for "luthier" to find my files, currently only two will come up. This one is called "Guitar Shop Reorginization"). Then you can navigate it and see what you really think. Or I would be glad to email it to anyone as an attachment. Cool thing is, anyone can download it, break it apart, and use the tools, etc, to build their own shop if they wanted.

FWIW, the shop is 16X24 on pier and beam. The partition wall is already in place and my 60 gallon compressor and dust collector are a perfect fit behind it.

The main question right now is simply which part of the shop would use for "clean" work and which part would you use for the more dust-generating dimensioning tools, given the shop layout.

Any other thoughts are welcomed! Am I missing anything important? I doubt it will get organized to this degree before I start building again, but there's hope. The wait is killin' me!

Wes

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Either will work, but here's a tip tha could pay off later.

Orient your table saw such that it aims at a door and window. If you ever need to rip long boards, with your current layouts, you'll be screwed.  In the top layout, if you skewed the saw about 200 degrees clockwise, it would have access from the door, as well as an exit out th window.

I'd also move all the large power tools off the walls, and bring them into the center of the shop space, and scoot that little island to a wall instead. What good is a bandsaw when you have it against a wall? The drill press in a corner will limit how long the work pieces can be. That kind of stuff; think it through.

'nother tip that came in very handy for me is to keep all outlets at minimum 50 inches from the floor, so that you may store sheet goods on any wall.

Oh, and while it may seem okay to put the compressor and dust collector together, it isn't. the dust collector will spew fine dust, while the compressor will ingest it and concentrate it, wearing the cylinder, rings, and valves, as well as shooting dust particles out with the compressed air. Consider building a filtered 'wall' between the collector and
compressor.

Good catches, Mario. Especially with the compressor/dust collector thing, a filtered partition would be a good thing. And, while I'm at it, I guess a door with a filter in it between the DC and the rest of the shop?

I'll definitely rethink the TS orientation. One thing I intended was to make most of this stuff mobile (on wheels). Figgered that would help with the tools against the wall, just drag them out if I need the room. Obviously, the less stuff I have to move to work, the more efficient my work will be. Think there's room to put the major tools out in the middle? And with them in the middle, will there be room for the TS and outfeed? I'll have to draw it out...

Also, guess I was thinking the island bench would give better access for some work. And also serve as a TS outfeed table.

Great stuff to think about! Thanks!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Also, one thing I drew in (may be hard to tell) is that the plywood bench with the benchtop tools on it is hinged to the wall at the corner. This would be mounted on heavy duty casters and has plywood storage built into the back of it. Reason being, this is one of the only areas in the shop with 8 feet of uninterrupted wall space. I could lock it down to the floor when in use, then unlatch it and swing it out for access to the plywood storage. (Would have to move whatever is in the middle of the floor, of course, but it would be on casters, too. And I shouldn't need to access full sheets of plywood all that often.)

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Here's a view of the plywood cart swung out. With the TS moved, sheet goods could be pulled out the door. And, of course, loaded from the door.

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

This is really cool having this digital shop to design with!

Wes, I don't see a buffing station. If you don't use one just ignore me, but, It's really nice to do your buffing in front of a big window like you have there in your shop. Like where the planner and bandsaw are now.

long

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"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

One surprise I had in about the third reorganization of my shop was that building an interior partition to make a seperate assembly room actually felt like it increased the size of the shop.  Wall space can be a good thing.  You may want to consider walling off the assembly area in the 1st drawing.  Even though 16 x 24 isn't going to be hard to keep humidity controlled, a smaller room will be even easier and I bet the wall space will come in handy, even if you put a large window in it.

Both shops I've been in went through at least 3 reorganizations in order to keep cramming more stuff in and they got more efficient each time.  The lesson I learned from that is either that I am a poor planner or that it is pretty difficult to really maximize the use of space until you've been in it for awhile.  Anyway, that's my way of suggesting that you keep as few things truly fixed as possible and allow yourself the opportunity to move things around in the future.

Also, as you probably know, it's unbelievable how many outlets you can use in a one person shop.  I put in more than I thought I could use 8 years ago and I've already added 2 circuits and about 6 power strips!

Lastly, here are a couple of pics of some efficient storage that has worked well for me.  The first was a way to get rid of some high lumber racks that were a giant pain to access.  The second is a high workbench (great for the back for many tasks!) with tons of storage underneath.

Looks like fun.  Good luck.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I have only one thing to add to the excellent advice above...
If you wire your shop in the same way newer kitchens are wired, with "split receptacles", you will have 110 & 220 Volts available at every outlet. It's a little more expensive initially, but I have never regretted doing it in my shop.
Down the road, if you want to re-arrange the shop or add another 220 V. tool, you won't be restricted by your wiring.

Most of my 220V tools have two 110V plugs wired to the power cord. One plug carries the red power & the neutral (if required) & the other carries the black power & the ground. With this arrangement, I can plug my table saw (for instance) in to any receptacle in the shop.

Recently, JoeWoodworker had a great buy on rebuilt 220V. vacuum pumps. Because I already have the power available everywhere in the shop, I didn't hesitate to buy one. Saved me more than a hundred bucks at least.

Those virtual shops sure look clean... I want one!

I wasn't too sure until I started drawing it out, but I'm starting to like what I see!

Kent, I had already given thought to another wall, but that's as far as it went. Thanks for the boost! With the wall, I separated off an 8 X 12 clean room, leaving, plenty of room for everything else. Moving the bandsaw and drill press to the middle of the floor looks like a good idea, too. Thanks, Mario! Re: the tablesaw, it wound up basically in the middle of the 24' span, allowing around 12' on either side. Furthermore, it is in line with two windows, if more is needed. The tablesaw outfeed doubles as another work surface which also (at least in theory, one day...) has a downdraft sanding table built in. I've got room for my benchtop tools, my motorized dish sander (also still a pipe dream right now), and have worlds of wall space for further storage. I'm liking it so far!

Bob, thanks for the buffing station reminder. I used a buffing pad on my drill press in the past, but I did recently come up with a nice buffing arbor and motor. These will definitely go in.

Any more thoughts? Keep 'em comin', guys! This is just what I needed!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Dunno if I like the new layout...

You seem to have lost any and all of the spacious feel. Looking at the main floor, you'll be cramped up walking around 'stuff', trying not to bang into things. Then that little clean room, well, I'd feel claustrophobic ad locked-up in there <bg> Besides, you'll be running in and out of it so often, te door will likely remain open a lot. My spray booth is 6x12, and it's a small space, without benches! And with the walls, you've now lost the ability to cut 4x8 sheet goods on the tale saw(not the end of the world, but hey...).

Now, if you're comfortable in the 8x12 room, try turning it 90°, or even moving it to the left of the door(somewhat like your second layout). Either of these would leave you a larger space, methinks. Right now, i'd prefer either of the first ones to this latest one....

Grumpy has some good points.  I was thinking of a narrower assembly room.  For the wall, I was thinking of running it from about the end of the T wall (where the clamps are) in drawing #1.  Don't know your dimensions there but a 30" bench top (24" cabinets below) with 30" more space to the wall is not claustrophobic at all for me if there is a window in it.  The room in the pic below is just a few inches wider than that and you can see there's room left over for clutter on the floor.  The window is key though.  I may have a higher tolerance for claustrophobia though.  I could fit 3 of my finishing rooms into Grumpy's.

By the way, window/glass stores usually have a "boneyard" of mis-measured windows cluttering their warehouse.  They can often be had cheap!

As for the door being open a lot, that's true but somehow the small room still stays quite a bit drier in my shop.

But as I said, you may want to live in it awhile before making too many things permanent.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

One thing I would certainly do, and it looks like you have ample room (plus Mario and Serge de Jonge have their shops done this way, I just dont have the time to completely redo my small shop) is to make a shelf above one of your benches that double as the top of your go bar deck. You can easily have 8 feet worth, and thus can do multiple glue ups as needed. Plus the top of that now becomes storage for work in progress. For instance, in pic 1, the far left side is where I would put it .. that would be 6 or 8 feet of gobar area, then our standalone go bar is redundant ...

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Hmmmm...and here I was starting to like it. I know workspace is a personal preference, and I'll spend the rest of my life getting it set up like I want, but this is why I posted here - to get feedback from guys who actually spend most of their time in the shop, have seen the problems that arise, and have already worked their way through it. I'm definitely hearing you guys!

I don't know, Mario, I don't think I'd be too claustrophobic in an 8 X 12 room, especially if it had windows, but I just wouldn't know until I spent some time in there. I'll have to give that some more thought. I was definitely liking the extra wall space, though. And, actually the layout does have room for ripping 4 X 8 sheets (I measured) was one reason it appealed. But, like you said, even if it didn't, it wouldn't be the end of the world - except, of course, every time you wanted to rip one... I couldn't crosscut, but it's not a big deal to cut a sheet down to something manageable before going to the TS.

Kent, regarding coming off the end of the "T" wall, I have to leave an open walkway through there (if I'm understanding you right). Actually, it's not shown in the drawing, but there is an outside door at the back right next to the dust collector. The future plan is to move the compressor and DC to an outside room (with return air, of course) and use that small area for my finishing area. It would only be 4 feet wide, but could be as much as 12 feet long, if I wanted.

Tony, I had that thought, too, and will probably do it. Actually the setup I had in my old garage was just that - I don't even have a stand-alone go-bar deck. I was thinking the freedom to walk around it would be good, though. Wonder about somehow incorporating a suspended shelf above an island workstation, leaving the freedom to use any part of the island as a go-bar deck?

Oh, well, back to the drawing board. This drawing process really helps, though. I highly recommend it. And, again, the major focus right now is just determining the basic layout in order to plan my electrical and dust collection routes for major tools. All the other pointers are great helps, though! Thanks!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

For elctrical, my two last shops have both had external wiring, running in that flexible metal sheathing(dang, I forget what it's called right now, but you know what I mean...). With that setup, the shop is free to evolve with me as I go. Also means there are fewer "holes" in the vapour barrier and insulaltion of the outside walls. the lighting runs in the attic, and one outside wall has interior wiring9because it's the wall between the shop and garage, i can still access the wiring to move it around/upgrade if need be). It's a bit more up-front cost, but it sure is handy, and safe, also. never worry about hitting a wire if you wish to cut a wall for a new window, door, hanger, etc....

That would be BX ... unless you mean conduit - but it doesnt flex ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

BX!

thanks....

Too much MEK in the bloodstream....

[QUOTE=Daniel M] I have only one thing to add to the excellent advice above...
If you wire your shop in the same way newer kitchens are wired, with "split receptacles", you will have 110 & 220 Volts available at every outlet. It's a little more expensive initially, but I have never regretted doing it in my shop.
Down the road, if you want to re-arrange the shop or add another 220 V. tool, you won't be restricted by your wiring.

Most of my 220V tools have two 110V plugs wired to the power cord. One plug carries the red power & the neutral (if required) & the other carries the black power & the ground. With this arrangement, I can plug my table saw (for instance) in to any receptacle in the shop.

Recently, JoeWoodworker had a great buy on rebuilt 220V. vacuum pumps. Because I already have the power available everywhere in the shop, I didn't hesitate to buy one. Saved me more than a hundred bucks at least.

Those virtual shops sure look clean... I want one!
[/QUOTE]

Daniel--I'm a little confused by your statement about the 220V tools having two 110V plugs. Do you plug these into seperate circuits to pick up 220V?

Yes he does Nelson - all the double outlets are wired as split receptacles - red on one, black on the other - as long as the plugs from the machines are wired up properly, you can plug one into either side of the split outlet - its somewhat ingenious actually.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

So, the 220v machines have two plugs on their line, and you plug both in?

What about the ratings? You can still only draw so much from 14-3 wire, even if it is wired at 220v.

 Or is there a 12-3 wire readily available?

When I built my shop I "lived" in it for almost a year before i started building interior walls. There is a natural flow to the way we work & it isn't always immediately apparent, how that flow will work in a given space.
Give yourself some time to feel out the space before you do any major interior construction.
The tablesaw is the biggest space hog in the shop. Having it in wheels so you can easily relocate it for cutting sheet stock is a really good idea in a small shop.

Good point Mario .. you can always run it on two 14/2 cables, then each can draw the full 15 amps. Have to check, not sure if split kitchen receptacles are on 14/3 or twin 14/2s ... hmmmm ???

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

It is difficult to give good advice by simply suggesting ‘move this wall here’ and ‘that machine over there’, spaces (like guitars) must be worked as a whole. Here are some quick tips after looking at your sketches:

Go with a single room! That shop space is not so big that humidity should be difficult to control, and I think a single big room also would be more pleasant to work in, the natural light will be better, it will be more flexible, traffic between work stations will likely be more efficient and there will be more room around the machines. Storage can be accomplished in many ways besides hanging stuff on the wall; rolling carts, chests, drawers under the benches and so on. If you do decide to put up partition walls the most efficient use of space is usually when the resulting rooms become 'rectangles' and not variations on the 'L' as in your revised plan; those spaces tend to become cramped and unpractical. Don’t just look at which tools belong closest to the dust collection and need most room to maneuver work pieces, think logistics; how often are they used and which operations require that you go from one work station to the other, and place the machines and work stations accordingly.

The best way to make good use of natural light is to position benches so the light falls in from the side (from the left if you are right handed), that is to position the benches perpendicular to the window. If the bench is directly in from of it the light will fall on back of the work and may cast shadows on what you actually work on. A semi island type bench which gives you access from 3 sides, combined with a wall mounted bench often works well.

I would advice against putting all your stuff in there and 'letting things evolve' as has been suggested. Machines and habits tend to stick, often in less than ideal ways. Work it out and think ahead, it is possible to plan for future tool upgrades and storage needs. That is one reason I think a single big room of this size is better.

Godd luck!

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Yeah, Arnt, I hear ya'. And, yes the partition would be easy to add later. Been having a hard time getting everything in there without getting cramped. Here's another variation that also has some good points.

This one is split down the middle, loses the dedicated TS outfeed (but still can allow for ripping long goods with the door open, has a workbench "peninsula" go-bar area using a bench above that allows accessing to all three sides...

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I have sketch up, but never worked with it. Can you give us(me) the basic layout, and the tools, so we could move them around?

I have an idea I think could work well, based on my own shop, but it's hard to convey in words....

Is there a structural reason for that little wall wit the DC and comp behind it? Or could it be removed if need be?