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LePage's glue...the "mucilage" in the odd nipple topped bottle is fish glue...and so is the glue on much of the moisture activated tape and envelopes and stamps of yore.

[QUOTE=jfrench] David - are you sure? I have both the LV and the
Kremer, right here in front of me. They behave very differently from each
other. Even the consistencies of the liquid are different.
[/QUOTE]

No, I guess I'm not sure. Norland allegedly said that LV was a reseller of
their High Tack Fish Glue is smaller quantities (one Gallon doesn't quite
make minimum order from Norland), but I heard this from another person
so I can't be certain.

The Kremer I assumed was Norland because the MSDS info is identical to
percentage and phrasing. Seemed a reasonable assumption, but if you
have them and they are notably different then there must be an error in
my info here. Either that, or one of them is watering it down .

Are the color or smell of them noticeably different?

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Taste?

"What's that stuff that smells like fish?
I'll tell you if you really want to know.
It's not tuna; doesn't come in a can,
It's what every natural woman wants
From every natural man..."

LMAO!!!

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Rick,

One of the reasons why Monica said that fish glue is sensitive to humidity is that when we were in the Romanillos class (I was in it with her last year) what we experienced in the workspace we were in was a swing in humidity of over 20 percent or more in the same day.

In the mountains of Spain where we had the class there is a dry wind that comes in in the afternoon and it can cause a sudden drop in humidity. We had days in which the humidity would vary from 57 to 21 percent in the same day.

Because there were builders in the class from all over the world, Jose cautioned anyone from a high humidity area to use Titebond instead of fish glue. There was one builder in our class from Taiwan who deals with tropical humidities when back in Taiwan, so Jose didnt want he gluing up his guitar with fish glue at less than 30 percent humidity and then take it out of the case in 90 percent+ humidity.

In general fish glue is no more or less hydroscopic than hot hide glue. The exception already noted is the iseeinglas which is from swin bladders where as most other fish glues are from other parts of the fish.

Kremer and Lee Valley are most definitely not the same glue repackaged. As Joshua says, there are some consistency differences, but the main thing is there different setting up time and clamping reqirements. The Norland and Lee Valley could well be the same product. Kremer definitely not.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

just though i'll add this.
ive completed two guitars(classical & steel string), and i used Lee-Valley's fish glue for pretty much everything.

among the fact that some people here have used it and tested it, another reason why i decided to try it is because local luthier Boaz Elkayam uses it and reccomended it.

Udi.

Perhaps it's the Lee Valley that is not made my Norland then, though that's
the one I thought I was certain of. I've never bought from anyone but
Norland so I really can't say. The Kremer MSDS matches the Norland MSDS
info, down to the date of writing, so I assume they repackage Norland
products.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

David I think you must have misread my post, I think that Lee Valley IS made by Norland, Kremer is different.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I should have added that my findings are judged from the contents of the bottles themselves and their working characteristics.

Leee Valley = Norland. Kremer is definitely different from the other two in it working characteristics.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Now I'm curious.  What are the clamping and setting up differences between the products, as you have so meticulously recorded? 

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

You guys may all be tired of this, but since we seemed to have some questions that needed answering, I sent an email to Norland, asking if they knew of research re: Fish Glue and humidity.  I got an answer from the man himself, and he granted permission to post the info. here.  So this is the response:

"Dear Mr. Thomson,



I'm not aware of any published research regarding humidity and Fish Glue.
Our Fish Glue has excellent bond strength to wood, and we've never had
any complaints from our customers regarding this.



After you inquired, I Googled "Fish Glue and Humidity" and there's
certainly some strong feeling expressed in anecdotal form.



Here's my opinion on our product.  Other Fish Glues may perform
differently. Our Fish Glue can absorb a small amount of moisture from the
atmosphere, but it's not going to absorb enough to loose strength and
separate.  If someone is having an adhesion problem, it's more likely due
to inadequate coverage, too much adhesive or poor surface preparation.



Here's a test which may help you to understand why some people claim
humidity is a problem.



Brush High Tack Fish Glue on a clean, wood surface and let it dry at room
temperature.  The thickness of the coating should be as if you were
painting the surface or making a Fish Glue bond.  Allow it to dry
overnight.  If you touch the surface the next day with your fingertip,
it'll seem tacky and someone might say, "See!!  Look at the moisture it's
absorbed.  It should be dry by now."  This is why I think some people
have the misconception that Fish Glue absorbs enough moisture to
delaminate.



What they think they're observing isn't what's occurring.  The moisture
on the fingertips is rewetting the Fish Glue and making it tacky.  Touch
it with your knuckle or with a piece of paper and the surface won't be
tacky.



Our High Tack Fish Glue will work very well for your instrument assembly.
We have customers that use it for this.



Kind regards,

Richard Norland"

This, then, generated questions about the brands, Lee Valley and Kremer, so I asked that.  Then I told him about your experiment, Colin.  I then asked the question which Alex asked in the beginning relative to Fish Gelatin.  I also invited him to look in on OLF if he was interested.  He didn't mention that, but his was his response to the rest:

"Dear Mr. Thomson,



The Fish Glue that Lee Valley and Kremer sell is our Fish Glue.  If your
forum feels there is a difference, it's possible that the resellers
reformulate it to meet their own specifications.



Our Fish Gelatin and Fish Glue start out from the same raw materials which
is collagen contained in the skin of deep sea cold water fish such as cod,
pollock, haddock and hake.  We purchase these in North America and Europe
from food fish processors, as the skins are a by product of their filleting
operations.  The fish skins are thoroughly washed to clean them and then
treated with acid and hot water to extract the gelatin or glue.  Up to this
point, the process is the same for gelatin and glue.



After the extraction, the Fish Gelatin is deionized (purified more), while
the Fish Glue isn't.  The deionization reduces the inorganic salts that were
released from the skins during extraction to produce a clearer, better
tasting gelatin.  The deionization is good for food grade gelatin but adds
cost and is not necessary for glue production.  In fact, it's better for the
Fish Glue since the small amount of chemical salts left behind act as a
humectant and provide more flexibility to the glue.  Flexibility is good for
an adhesive because it allows it to absorb stress rather than transmit it to
the bond line.  A

brittle adhesive has more chance of separation, since the adhesive won't
move and all the forces will be directed to the adhesive/wood interface.



You can mix Fish Gelatin with water and produce an adhesive that will be
very good.  This is what conservators do.  The reason why is because they
want to restore objects using products with as few variables as possible.
For producing musical instruments and wood bonding, Fish Glue will work
best.  It's supplied ready to use and has slightly more flexibility.



Please feel free to include my responses on your post.



Kind regards,

Richard Norland"

I never hurts to ask the question.  I know he's selling Glue, but it is interesting to hear directly, his thoughts on the subject.  I also sent him one more question relative to flexibility, but have not, yet, received an answer.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

The guy is to be commended for replying as carefully as he did.   That's great.   

He didn't address the issue of sturgeon air bladder glue being perceived as being a higher quality product, though, and I think that would be interesting to pursue. In my own Internet research that kept coming up.   

I thought he was pretty "straight up" with his answers.  If he answers my question about flexibility, I'll ask him the difference between Fish Glue, and Isenglas, which is what you are referring to, is it not.  I'm sure he's busy running a business, and may not have time to continue answering questions.  However, it never hurts to ask.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

That's interesting Waddy, I guess Kremer are reformulating, they certainly have the know how, as it is definitely different in use. Both Joshua and I have noticed the same differences in set up, clarity and ease of sanding. Our knowledge increases.

Whatever I certainly like any of the brands, whatever you can use Titebond/LMI for, you can use fish glue.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Colin, what are you seeing as different.  Is it smoother? Faster drying/slower drying?  Easier to clean up?  You said something about sanding.  Inquiring minds and all that muck!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Has anyone figured out a good way to clean up the fish glue squeeze-out....it is a bear to get it up, doesn't seem to behave like the HHG. I really like using it, but it's tough to be as neat and clean with it as I like to be.

Greg

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Gwaltney Guitars

Try DeGlue Goo.

Also I found some sources for Russian sturgeon gelatin. It's not too expensive, and I'm going to get some and give it a try.

http://www.sinopia.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID= 1099

Fish glue has a sinfully long working time, which makes it great for
difficult repairs. Hard to reach braces, long tight cracks, large surfaces or
complicated clamping or line up situations, anywhere that may take time
to work glue. This makes it a dream for repairs. But although it has a very
rapid initial tack (I've used it for many rub joints in joining top and back
plates), it takes overnight to dry to near full strength in my experience.


For things like bridge reglues, some headstock breaks, simple top
cracks, I use hide glue. Sometimes I use rabbit skin glue if I feel I need a
bit more time than cattle hide glue as it gels a bit more slowly. I've heard
of some violin makers who claim to use exclusively horse hide glue. It all
works in very similar fashion, and can be suited to different uses. The
collagens are very similar in each.

I've never worked with sturgeon bladder isinglass, though it's something
I've always wanted to try. I've done a bit of experimenting with the pure
fish gelatin from Norland as well, with mixtures of different tackifiers,
antimicrobials, mixed with other collagens like rabbit and cow hide, but
it's more of a casual project for me.

If I were building rather than repairing I would probably be using much
more hide glue than fish glue. It dries faster, is much easier to clean up,
and most applications for building don't require much open time.

As to cleanup, I've been using it as a main glue for years and still haven't
found an easy way. The stuff grabs to everything and does not want to let
go. Most rubs off with a damp rag quickly, but that last bit of film has a
pretty tenacious grip. Just keep rubbing with a damp paper towel and use
a fresh surface for each swipe. I'm usually cleaning up on finished
surfaces though. If you're talking about things like brace glue ups, just
don't put on too much glue.

As I see it,
Pros: Longer working time than hide glue.
Cures hard like hide, having better creep resistance than PVAs.
Better heat resistance than PVA and most epoxies.
More reversible and serviceable than polyurethane, CA, resorcinol, urea
formaldehyde.

Cons: Longer clamping times required.
Not as easy cleanup as hide or PVA.
Water based, meaning wood swelling has to be considered in some
applications.
Not as water resistant as epoxies, CAs, polyurethanes, UF, resorcinol,
some PVAs, and possibly hide glue, though in my personal
experience I've not seen much difference in average use.
More expensive than Hide and PVAs.

In short, it replaced PVAs in my shop years ago. Where I used to use hide
glue, I still use hide glue. Same with epoxy and CA. But where PVAs were
used I now use fish glue. Better creep and heat resistance, with no
downsides other than price that I've found. Haven't handled a bottle of
titebond in three or four years.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Here's an excerpt from an email I sent Colin, after comparing the two glues (they behave extrodinarily different for me, I'm surprised they come from the same vendor... Kremer must do soemthing different. The Kremer stuff is the msot like what we used in the 2001 Romanillos course):

Colin,

Hope all is well for you!

Have you done a comparison yet of the fish glues between Kremer and Lee Valley? I just started using the Lee valley stuff and its very different to me from the Kremer (been using the Kremer for about 6 years now).

I did some experimenting. The Kremer FG I used for experiments is about 3 years old (I bought a lot, and it keeps well) and the Lee Valley stuff is new. So far here are my conclusions:

The Kremer sets much faster, needing only about an hour of clamping time. It takes at least 6 hours of clamping time for me to get full wood breakage out of a bond with the Lee Valley stuff.

The open time for the Lee Valley stuff could be very advantageous for some things. But the quicker tack and bonding time of the Kremer stuff is probably better for soundboard braces and such (hard to maneuver around all those go bars and I'd be waiting over night to unclamp and do the next few braces).

The Lee Valley stuff cleans up easier. It also sands significantly easier.

I think they have about the same strength. The Lee Valley stuff seems to make a more invisible joint on lighter woods, which is useful for joining the soundboard.

My ultimate conclusion is that both have separate applications depending on how much time you can let something remain clamped and how well you must clean up the squeeze out. In the end, I think the bond is equal and the properties are equal, but they require a different approach. I haven't done any tests yet to determine which requires more heat to release joints, have you?

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Mike, I would very much like a sample of the material you just received.......!......will you be at the Saratoga Show in a couple of weeks?

Joshua and Shawn, what exactly was the source of the fish glue that we used on the course?? I remember having to get used to how sticky it was (needed to keep a wet cloth handy to clean my fingers....) and how the flies sure liked it...........I enjoyed using it though and would not mind having some around....

Best!

Thanks Waddy for digging further into this. 

It sounds like the gelatin is better then, at least in theory!  We want tough brittle glue that will transmit vibration better, and break itself instead of ripping the wood.  

What i dont like about LMI white, is that it never seems to dry to a real hard form, at least when it is thick, as opposed to what the sticker on it says.  It feels like a softer plastic to me.

_________________
Build log

Edit: monday/tuesday im definitely buying a sample and make some tests.

_________________
Build log

David.... in 2001, if I recall correctly - Gerhard Oldiges provided the fish glue, which he had gotten from a local (to Germany) piano repairman. He suggested I get the stuff from Kremer, which is a German comapny but has a US office in NY and stated that it had very similar properties (if not the same) as the stuff we used on the course. Thats what I've been using since, except to try the LV stuff recently.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Gerhard Oldiges asked if I would post his comments about the Fish Glue here. His comments:

Hello, my name is Gerhard Oldiges, I sometimes follow the OLF Forum as a guest and might consider to join in future. I think I could add some more informations about the fishglue that was used in the Romanillos courses in Spain.

The original Fishglue that we used in Siguenza came from the german company Baumgaertel, a supplier for piano repairers, they also sell international: www.pianoteile-baumgaertel.de. Later I found that the qualities of the Kremer fishglue are very similar to the Baumgaertel. I could not find any very detailed informations about both glues, or who is producing it.

Please note that fishglue is not fish bladder glue (german "Hausenblase"). Fishglue is made from those parts of the fish that most people do not want to eat, just the same as hide glue made from bones or skin. Fishbladder glue is the dried air bladder of the different sturgeon fishes. The use of both is very different. Fishbladder glue is said to be waterproof while fishglue is relative hygroscopic and can loosen under extreme conditions like heat and very high humidity. I would say that Joshua's decision to use Titebond for a guitar for Singapore is a good one.

Thank you     Gerhard

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/