Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=Bill Greene] [QUOTE=joe white] Mario, I would be curious about the Chemcraft Polyester and sealer since I have not committed to any particular clear or sealer as of yet. still waiting to hear back from Neil Wooler from McF. on what quantities must be purchased. I'm afraid that I will be looking at 5 gal containers most likely. can you get smaller batches of Chemcrafts stuff?[/QUOTE]

Joe:


(the customer service/dialogue was certainly superior) to the McFadden's.  I'm going to give the Poly a try at some point soon. Based on Rick, and Mario, and Kevin's advice, it's well worth trying.

Bill
[/QUOTE]

 

Thanks Bill, I do understand what you mean about the customer service/dialogue, all too well!  I too, wish to go poly, it seems to be the cutting edge of durability, quality, appearance and performance. Not to mention the speed.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]My preference is to forge ahead and not worry about patches of epoxy and bare wood. The McFadden rosewood sealer seems to have exactly the same wetting properties as the epoxy. I say "seems" because if I'm proven wrong in the future, I'll change my finish schedule to suit, but for now, this works like gang busters.

A lot of the finishing process (along with everything else in lutherie) is knowing what makes a difference and what is simply self-indulgent navel gazing time wasting bulls.... I don't do this stuff as a hobby, though I love doing it. I build guitars for money, and I'd like to make more money than I am.

When I adopt a new technique or new material, the potential financial reward is a part of that decision making process.   That doesn't mean cheapening my guitars; it means delivering more bang for the buck in less time, and it has to tip toward being financially viable and profitable.

I'm doing the epoxy fill thing because I think it makes for a better finish in less time with less expenditure on finish materials. I'm not going for 100% pore fill with the epoxy as the sealer and polyester I use takes care of that last 10% to 20% just fine. To do a second fill and to do an epoxy wash coat are not good use of my time as I see it right now, and they will not improve the look.

To me this is like the whole thing of sanding with Micro Mesh to 3,600 grit...I'm sorry, but that is such a waste of time...Let's get this job done quickly, folks...It's not that much fun in the first place...[/QUOTE]

 

Again Rick, THANKS! I know all too well the pitfalls of (over thinking) a product and wasting far too much time in processes. It auto refinish, you take the basic recommendations and procedures from the manufacturer and you push the living snot out of them in order to discover just how far and how well the system will work for you. Some systems and procedures last for years and have a very forgving nature and some don't make it a week. It is an (always evolving) and ever changing thing.

Bill, you got it backwards, most likely because you caught the wrong person on the phone...

McFadden's has a 5 gallon minimum.

Chemcraft sells in one gallon minimums. Ask the distributor for a retailer near you(or sea4rch the Chemcraft International site for a retailer), and that retailer will bring it in, in one gallon quantities. My nearest retailer is 4 hours away, in Sudbury, Ontario(Barrydown Paints, to be specific), but that still beats the customs hassle, and I was wasting roughly half of the McFadden's, since it got too old before I'd use it up.

[QUOTE=grumpy]McFadden's has a 5 gallon minimum.
Chemcraft sells in one gallon minimums. I was wasting roughly half of the McFadden's, since it got too old before I'd use it up.[/QUOTE]

This is probably the single most important selling point for the Chemcraft product. Even in auto finishing we bought products in gallon containers. Five gallon minimums pretty much eliminate the small scale finisher, repair tech or builder.  Thanks Mario!

[QUOTE=Don A]Sorry to sidetrack, but have you seen the new small packaging for West System? I just noticed this in the new Rockler catalog and it looks ideal for our application. West System Epoxy[/QUOTE]

Theres 6 packs for about $20.00.  Makes for a pretty expensive pore fill job?

_________________
A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

Rich, if you follow and read through my posts, I epoxy filled my guitar with a total of 8 teaspoons of product. That is back, sides and neck. It also appears that I did not have to completely coat the guitar as I did leaving a very thin film of epoxy over all the wood with the exception of a few cut throughs here and there. I think this is a VERY economical epoxy fill.

Each pack makes .56 oz of mixed epoxy.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=Hesh1956]Joe any idea yet of the ETA for offering poly finishing to your buds here?[/QUOTE]

I think I'm closing in on it! Mario has hooked me up with an alternative to McFaddens. I have a local supplier that carries the product that he has been using and if all goes well, I will be clearing within a few days. I have one ready and another right behind it (test subjects) I want to have guitars completely finished for anyone to look at, hold, scrutinize. As I have said elsewhere, I will not offer up my service until I am confident that y'all are getting first rate finishes,period.

Right on, Joe!!! Let me know when I can inspect, hold and scrutinize your first efforts.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=grumpy] Bill, you got it backwards, most likely because you caught the wrong person on the phone...McFadden's has a 5 gallon minimum.Chemcraft sells in one gallon minimums. Ask the distributor for a retailer near you(or sea4rch the Chemcraft International site for a retailer), and that retailer will bring it in, in one gallon quantities. My nearest retailer is 4 hours away, in Sudbury, Ontario(Barrydown Paints, to be specific), but that still beats the customs hassle, and I was wasting roughly half of the McFadden's, since it got too old before I'd use it up.
[/QUOTE]

Well, I'll call around again because I spoke with 3 different distributors, all who said Chemcraft is in 25 gallon minimums: One in Charlotte, one in Walkertown (near Winston-Salem) and one near Raleigh. So they may not know what they're talking about, but at least they're consistently confused.

The lady I spoke with at McFadden's was "Carol"...and she quoted the 1 gallon minimum.

If there's any names/numbers either you, or Joe, can provide, I'd be grateful. Even if it's at the Chemcraft Corporate office. Thanks a bunch.

Bill

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Bill, I was working with Neil Wooler from Mcfadden. I e-mailed him last night and did not get a reply today. I understand that they shuffle us little guys to the bottom of the stack but it would be nice to get this thing nailed down and move forward with one material or the other.

I don't qualify as a "big guy", but Peter Beck from McFadden came and spent a nice bit of time with us in our booth at the NAMM show last year. He couldn't have been nicer, I must say.   We buy most stuff in five gallon pails, but we do get our satin urethane by the gallon from them.   

Well, perhaps McFadden;'s lowered their minimum since my last order a couple years ago, but at that time, it was a 5 gallon min. I remember Carol <g> She always seems to answer the phone.... Neil is indeed the polyester dude to talk to.

But I assure you, and can take a damned photo of the gallon jugs, that Chemcraft sells in gallons.... at least, in Canada they do.

[QUOTE=grumpy]But I assure you, and can take a damned photo of the gallon jugs, that Chemcraft sells in gallons.... at least, in Canada they do.[/QUOTE]

Ok, Ok, I believe you Grumpy! Like you said, it might be different for you north of the border. We'll get to the bottom of all this tomorrow.

My guess is the Grumpster, can I call you Grumpster, is right...what one is told today is frequently predicated strictly on who picks up the phone. Thanks Joe and Mario for Neil's name at McFlappen's.

I talked to some ultra-rude wanker from Chemcraft who did everything he could do to make certain I understood clearly that "poly was not intended for guitars, only boat building, and that it will not, under any circumstance, work for guitars. Guitars can only be shot with Vericure." When I told him there were professional guitar builders already using poly, successfully, every single day, he said..."Oh really," and acted as if I made it up.

That ONE GUY would have been enough to discourage most people, including me, from making any additional calls about the product had I not had the OLF poly thread to refer back to. Luck of the draw I guess.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Keep in mind that we(luthiers) are but a tiny blip on anyone's radar. So unless the person you talk to has recently spoken with another instrument maker, odds are you're the first, ever, so while you're asking questions, he/she is thumbing through the same catalog you just browsed on-line, in order to answer your question(s). In other words, they won't know squat....


That's where McFadden''s is way ahead. They know "us". But even they, in early 2004, tried to talk me out of their polyester, and into their polyurethane. Perhaps they knew that for the next year, they'd be fielding questions on its use, so they'd rather we use the simpler stuff...<g> I finally reached Neil (Woolek, isn't it?) and Leo Mancouso in the tech dept...


When I called Chemcraft this spring, I simply asked for someone in the tech lab, reached a cool guy named Mike, and told him I was interested in trying Reslack. Told him I was already using McFadden's polyester(don't refer to it as 'poly', please. Do yourself, and everyone, a favor...). He said he'd heard of a few other guitar builders using it, and said Martin used their polyurethane for some stuff,(interesting...).  He set me up with the part numbers and mix ratios, as well as time frames(which are very different from McFadden's), and then I called a RETAIL store that carries Chemcraft, and they ordered-in my stuff. Took a few weeks, but that was it.... You're not going to buy from the distributor listed on their website.

[QUOTE=ToddStock]The 5 gallon minimum still allows you to split the order between different products, so it's an option to pick up lacquer, sealer, poly, and other products in gallon packages as a combo order. [/QUOTE]

Todd, This is great news!!! I don't know why, but I assumed the five gallon min. was per product. I figured they didn't package in anything less that five gallon containers. This definitely makes McF's feasible for me.

Hrmmmmf... That option was never offered to me <g>

Still wouldn't have used it up in time.

Grumpy! 

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=grumpy]Hrmmmmf... That option was never offered to me <g>Still wouldn't have used it up in time.[/QUOTE]

Me either Grump, but this way, a couple fellas could split the order amongst themselves and not worry about having too much product. A little shipping to deal with but everybody wins!

Our local Chemcraft distributor, and he had no idea that Reslac was polyester, and he argued with me saying that if it said "lac" then it was lacquer.   When I attempted to tell him that I knew what I was talking about, he blew me off. I then called the factory, got the right info, and the next day the distributor called back all sheepish...But I still haven't seen the samples.   Screw 'em. I don't want that distributor to make a dime off of me. I'm happy enough with McFadden.

I just found out from McF's that I have a rep right in my own backyard! I'm stoked! Just placed my order for the Poly and Rosewood sealer. I gave a big plug for you Rick. Told them that you were the main deciding factor for me going with their product. Maybe they'll throw in an extra ounce or two of cobalt on your next order.

I have a local distributor for Chemcraft stuff and the store rep was goofy and very unhelpful. I say screw 'em too!

Sure hope someone from Chemcraft reads this. Says a lot of what customer service can, and can't, do, for a manufacturer.

[QUOTE=grumpy]Sure hope someone from Chemcraft reads this. Says a lot of what customer service can, and can't, do, for a manufacturer.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah!