Official Luthiers Forum!

.26m.m. of slop where you don't want it. It's all in the details <G> 


There won't be any slop.

a) you perhaps don't understand tapers, because the proper taper will leave no gap, and

b) you don't know how to measure a string ball <bg>

DAddario. Sure enough, if we measure this way, it's as you say, but since we must insert it through a  hole, we measure the widest part, it's, ummm, .001" smaller than 3/16".

It's all about the details, and getting them right.

Assuming your arm isn't too big to fit in the soundhole or there is no hole big enough, why must it go through the hole and not from underneath? I drill smaller than 3/16 and after reaming many times the hole at the bottom is too small for the ball to fit through. I do not countersink the pins, which may open up the hole more but also makes a snug pin harder to get out by hand. No big deal with a tool though. I reckon it depends on how thick the bridge and plate are too in terms of where the opening of the hole falls. In some situations, though, a 3/16 hole is too big.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

why must it go through the hole and not from underneath?

Don't play much?

Ever break a string? On stage? Try explaining to the audience that you need 10-15 minutes to loosen all the strings so you can get your hand in there to feed the new string through...

 This also suggest you're using a very tall bridge and/or thick bridge plate and/or heavy top. Countersink or not.

It does depend on the thickness of the bridge/top/bridge plate. If you're
using a 3/8" bridge, 1/8" top and 1/8" bridge plate, then you will end up
with a bit of slop at the bottom of the plate. Still, trust me on this - you
can't get by with smaller than 3/16" on the bottom. Maybe you can if the
guitar is for yourself, and you want to forever limit you choice to one
particular brand of strings that will fit through a smaller hole. If you want
a guitar that will fit D'addario, Pearse, GHS, Thomastik, Martin, Elixer,
etc., then you need a 3/16" hole. Trust me. I curse at makers frequently
when a guitar comes in with a slightly smaller hole, because it is often a
major pain to fit the ball end in and out. And I have no intention of
ever telling a customer that they have to feed the string from the inside.

If everything is huge (3/8" bridge, 1/8" top and 1/8" plate) you would
need a pin around .220" at the collar for 3 degrees, or .240" for 5
degrees. A more modest .325" bridge, .100" top and .100" bridge plate
would need about .215" at the collar for 3 degrees, and .230". With these
measurements you would fill the 3/16" hole at the bottom. These
measurements are assuming you're chamfering the hole at top by a
modest .025". For the StewMac pins, you are allowed a maximum of 3/8"
from the bottom of the plate to the top of the bridge (or chamfered
recess) to fill a 3/16" hole. On unslotted pins this is not a structural
disaster. For slotted pins it is.

This is the exact reason I mentioned wanting to put together a
custom group order from Ken's neighbor Bob Colosi. He makes great
pins, is able to set up custom specs, and could make a bunch of 3 degree
unslotted pins, .220" at the collar. I would rather go that route than drill a
smaller pilot hole, because it really doesn't work well in my experience.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I understand that being able to put the ball in through the top is the ideal situation, for many reasons. I checked the tech specs on the stewmac snakewood pins I have been using. Assuming: 5/16 of bridge, .1 of spruce, .09 of bridge plate it puts you at .5 inches. The pin at 1/2 inch below the decorative ring is .177, .01 less than 3/16. So I countersink and everything is fine, or I thin somewhere else. .01 is not an unworkable number. It is an issue though if you are just drilling 3/16 and then reaming and assuming everything is tight. A larger pin would be great and would solve the problem perfectly.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

3° pins also solve the issue, by having a larger exit hole than the equivalent length and size 5° pin.

And how long have I been preaching the use of 3° pins? There was a reason. I've also never seen a good quality guitar without countersunk bridge pin holes.

Hesh, I number my pins. Solves the consistency issue. To number them, I take a small file, and make one notch for pin #1, two for #2, etc... None for the 6th pin(which I now slot lightly, but that's another story...). I've rn across some of my older guitars and te pins weren't even in height. I was able to pull them out, and swap them to their proper hoels and it all evened out. One of these days I need to write a note about the numbering and include it with all new guitars. Seems not everyone notices... <g>

I've also considered buying paints in the same colors as D'Addario's ball end. That would replace the little marks...

[quote=Mr. Grumpy]I've also considered buying paints in the same colors as D'Addario's ball end. That would replace the little marks...[/quote]

Brilliant!

[quote=Bruce Dickey]Okay, I have a question for you solid pin lovers. How do you make your slot through the bridge, top and bridgeplate? You know the one the string seats in and not in a pin slot. Inquiring minds want to know.... [/quote]

Another think I learned from Mario (he really does have a lot of great ideas) is to use the jig saw for slotting the bridge. Tape a piece of leather on the base and jest be careful. It's really quick and works extremely well. I made one very similar to the stew-mac saw Bob shows above but since trying the jig saw, it's just a no brainer.......

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Grumpy ! I've got better things to do than argue about the size of balls !

BTW I can, and did measure these correctly,, You didn't !

Those who "try this at home" , will quickly see that I am correct.

These pictures are crap I know , but you'll get the idea , and as I said ,,,go check.

D'Addario balls are .178 "

Stewmac 5 degree pins ,.5" down from the collar are .178"

Take a .3125 bridge plus soundboard thickness of say .115 , plus the thicknss of a bridge plate ,say .1. you have a thickness a little more than .5" .Now that's with a 5/16" bridge . you cant get too much thinner than that.



       .178  &n bsp;  Correct measurement




passes through 4.5 m.m (.178 ") hole. Correct measurement !



.178"    correct measurement.


Anyone who checks these will see that I'm correct.

Go measure again Grumpy !!!

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hesh1956 asked:
"Back to Al's post where he points out that the saddle is far more important. It is important because of it's energy/vibration transfer function and characteristics correct? Then why would it not make sense that bridge pins are important for the same reasons? Although the pins are in a position, literally, to transfer energy/vibration even if it is energy/vibration that originated at the saddle/bridge contact area. So even if the energy that the pins have an opportunity to transfer does not derive from direct string/pin contact and is the energy of the vibrating bridge it's still energy."

The reason the energy/vibration transmitting characteristics of the bridge pins ought not to matter is that there should be no vibration of the strings between the saddle top and the pins. If there is, you have a problem and the pins aren't going to solve it.

The primary function of the bridge is to tell the strings how long they are, so they'll know what pitch to vibrate at. Ideally the bridge should be fixed in space; totally rigid and infinitely heavy. Of course, if it were the guitar would make no sound, so we have to be satisfied with a compromise, which is a common thing in lutherie.

Given that the top of the guitar has to move, we'd like the top of the saddle to move along with it in perfect step. If the saddle is springy it will lag behind or get ahead of the top motion at some frequencies, and enhance some pitches while cancelling out others. Again, there is no perfectly rigid material from which to make saddles, but we generally find that the more rigid ones work better.

So, a reasonably rigid saddle sitting tightly in a a well made slot (we all make them that way, right?) will be moving along with the bridge: there will be no relative motion between the saddle top and the bridge. Thus there will be no relative vibration of the back strings at the pins, which are also moving along with the bridge if you fitted them right.

The only way I can think of for there to be appreciable motion of the back strings is if you don't have enough break angle, and the strings are hopping off the saddle top. If that's happening you have a terrible buzz that no amount of fooling with bridge pins will help.

On reamers:
You can make a single fluted reamer easily. Turn a taper of almost any sort of metal rod. Even aluminum will cut wood for a little while. File away almost half of it, so that you end up with a "D" cross section. As you push this into the hole the wood compresses a litte, and the edge makes a scraping cut. The round part makes a good guide, and it cuts a nice smooth hole with little tendancy to grab on the end grain. You can turn it either direction. You can sharpen it by lapping the flat. I made one of these of steel drill rod more than thirty years ago, and still use it on every steel string guitar.

[quote=Al Carruth]The primary function of the bridge is to tell the strings how long they are, so they'll know what pitch to vibrate at.[/quote]

I don't really mean to question you Al cause I'm quite sure you know a vast amount more about luthiery and guitars than I do but.......

Don't you mean the primary function of the SADDLE is to tell the strings how long they are, so they'll know what pitch to vibrate at?

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I give up. Life was better without the constant arguing over minutia.

Minutia. Good word. All this is hardly worth all the arguments. I say just use whatever you're comfortable with and let the chips fall where they may. This just isn't that important.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Eat the melon, spit out the seeds.

Iron sharpens iron.

The main point is to learn, and.... have fun doing it.

Even the little poll is telling.

I never knew that so many OLFers used solid pins, or why.

Mainly I've learned that I can switch to solid pins and scoot the ball end of the string solidly up onto the bridgeplate.

I also learned that bone weighs twice what plastic or wood pins do.

And I leaned if I screw up a set of BP holes, that StewMac has oversize. Life goes on!

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Sounds like some 3 degree pins are in my future! If anyone does initiate a group buy for some larger pins, I would be in on it for sure. Someday someone will invent a simple machine for making your own custom pins, and that will be a great day!

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Rod True asked:
"Don't you mean the primary function of the SADDLE is to tell the strings how long they are, so they'll know what pitch to vibrate at?"

*sigh*

Yes, the saddle tells the string how long it is. The bridge is there to hold the saddle in place. The point is that no matter how Jesuitical you choose to get, if there's vibration of the strings beyond the saddle, you have a problem, and the pins should never feel any vibration of the string.

:)

Great discussion everyone. Grumpy and Craig I think you guys need to recalibrate and syncronize those calipers before measuring any more ball ends.I just wanted to relay some of my own observations with BP's . I recently swaped  plastic pins for ebony on an old Yamaha FG750 and was pleasently surprised to hear a noticeable improvement in both sustain and clarity. I also have a Cort acoustic I bought a number of years ago which has slotted ebony pins and was interested to find that they were drilled through from front to back at approx the break angle of the strings over the saddle. The strings were fed through and the ball ends locked in to the bridge plate behind the pins. Just wondering what your thoughts are in relation to this method .

Regards

Craig.

OK, here's the challenge: all of you folks who believe that the bridge pins are transmitting sound in one way or another need to set up some experiments and measure it. You might try setting piezo elements between the bridge and the pin to see if there is any force being exerted. Kynar would work well. This whole discussion has become 'way too conceptual, and needs some data to ground it. When you have the data we can re-start the discussion.

[QUOTE=blegeyt] Someday someone will invent a simple machine for making your own custom pins, and that will be a great day![/QUOTE]



A small metal working lathe will do this very well. That is primarily why I got this little 9" Hardinge.

I have been making these from BRW scrap.



Louis

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- Louis Freilicher

Oh No! Not another learning experience!

nice looking pins Louis! I like the brass ring around the abalone too!

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Reguards,

Ken H