Official Luthiers Forum!

See, the sun did come up.

Grumpy for President!

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I don't know about President, maybe Secretary of Conflict Resolution.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I just hope he hasn't kissed off the forum again! We need him and his kind around here a lot more than he and his kind need us!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

The way he signed off the last thread, if I were moderator, I wouldn't allow him back on.   I agree we need him and I like Mario but I also desire some kind of civility. It irritates me that the rules we are asked to follow don't seem to apply the same way to those with great experience.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

First off, I need to say that this post is directed to every person (including me) who are part of this forum, yes I've called out two individuals but it's generally written to everyone.

Ron it's not that the rules don't apply to those with great experience, it's just that he's chosen to ignore the rule for the sake of expressing his disgust with some people. I'm sure if we were to spend some time face to face with Mario we might actually find that he talks more freely than he does here on the forum, or any forum for that matter.

Personally, I don't really care how the guy talks, or any one here for that matter, I bet most of the Aussie guys reel it in a fare amount (from my understanding of the Aussie culture, cussing is an art). Some people need to express themselves in the form of cussing, it's part of our language and I've learned to deal with it.

Having said that, rules are rules yes, but no one should be banned from the forum for breaking the rule once. It's not like Mario spews cuss words in every thread and in fact I think he is civil. People don't loose their drivers license for speeding right, they get a warning or a ticket.

I too hope Mario sticks around. He has a ton of experience and a lot of knowledge that few here have. Yes that's right, Few as in a small number. Yes he can be grumpy but so what. Get over it people, if you don't like the way the guy is just get over it.

Now if Mario is reading this, he to can get over the fact that some people find him a little over the top or arrogant, so what, get over it. (honestly I think he has and doesn't car that much)

There are no perfect people here, not one. We can all get along but we don't have to be the same or present ourselves "just how you like". Everyone needs to understand that we all want to learn more, even guys like Mario and Rick Turner who have a lot of experience want to learn more about this craft. Remember, you don't always have to be right and if you think you are, no one has to shove it in the face of someone else.

When spending time on a forum like this, people must have some amount of thick skin otherwise their feelings will be hurt way to often when someone doesn't like your stuff. That's just how it is.

Having said all this, I must say that I like everyone here. I have no issue with anyone. I may not like how some folks present themselves, but big deal I've gotten over it and have learned a ton about guitar building once I did get over it.

So.....thick skin folks, thick skin and if you don't like it, just get over it.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=old man] The way he signed off the last thread, if I were moderator, I wouldn't allow him back on.   I agree we need him and I like Mario but I also desire some kind of civility. It irritates me that the rules we are asked to follow don't seem to apply the same way to those with great experience.

Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron...I respectfully disagree that anyone should be removed because of this incident.

Remember when we used to have an edit button?...it was removed after a member went into the archives and removed valuable information. To my knowledge, no one was ever kicked off the forum as a result. Instead, we all were punished. I leave it to you and others to decide which was a more damaging action to the OLF. It took me all of 2 seconds to recover from the "F-bomb"...I'm still suffering from "Edit Button Withdrawal". Please...Let's keep it real!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

ok

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

I agree, it is way too easy to show offense in writing.  No one is face to face, and it gives us all barriers behind which we can hide.  There is no place for insults on a forum like this, but when insulted, it is better just to take it than increase the problem by delivering yet another insult.  Sticks and stones, and all that.  No one will think less of someone who does not participate in trading insults.  Just let them go.  It is very hard to finish a fight in writing.  Unless you are a Lawyer.   As to bad language, find another word.  The rules are good, and not that hard to follow.  When I was in the service, every other word was not allowed here, but when I was in polite company, I learned to control it.  Consider this forum polite company.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Looks guys, no big debate here, just no cussing and for crying out loud of ALL words! "Whats that mean daddy?"
I mean for real! Who wants to explain that to a 6 year old!
I don't know WHO reads this forum, I know I do and I also know my kids do. They are constantly browsing it on there own PC's, looking for ME! They also go to my guitar site and send me messages via the contacts page.

How many other kids are reading? I don't know, what I do know is that I don't approve of that kind of language and I am pretty sure most parents would not want there kids reading it either.

So, its really quite simple. Please don't cuss.
Man, its not asking that much...

Further more, I don't care (who) posts a bad word, I will delete it. There is not special treatment when it comes to that.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I've had my fair share of arguments here, and I try to learn from them
because there's always a time when the frustration turns into being
embarrassed.

There's a learning theory called constructivism, formalized by Jean Piaget.
In very simple terms, the driving idea is that we have different ways of
getting to a desired outcome—and that's good because we are drawing
from our other knowledge to do so (i.e. higher order thinking).   The
educator should facilitate the leaner's methods rather than demanding a
particular pedagogy be used.

"Education, for most people, means trying to lead the child to resemble
the typical adult of his society . . . but for me and no one else, education
means making creators. . . . You have to make inventors, innovators—not
conformists."

It's a good thing if someone has a different way of trying to learn how to
make better guitars. Iron sharpening iron is different than iron trying
shape iron like itself.

Ya'll keep it quiet, I'm in the middle of my Sunday afternoon nap.

Please vote for Grumpy!   

Oh yeah, announcement:

Rally on the downtown square tonight at 6PM, Iriquois Falls.

Grumpy for Pres! Free bluegrass music for all.

JC and the Boys - Promo

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

    It's really pretty simple. Profanity is to be avoided when posting here at
the OLF. It's a matter of fundamental respect for rules that are in place for
the general good of the whole body. Believe it or not, no one needs to
express themselves by cussing, but some choose to rather than put the
effort into choosing alternative words to their default or habitual choices.

    Experience and reputation should have no bearing on whether a person
should observe the rules and requests by the mods and owners of this or
any forum when participating in exchanges. There are places on the net
where they can go and cuss their heads off with no offense to anyone and
they should seek a few out to get it out of their system if they need to.

    At a major guitar show a few years ago, i was amazed at the lak of
professionalism shown by a group of builders as they stood around
talking. They sounded like a bunch of construction workers on a job site
rather than professionals at a venue representing the craft that they are
supposedly masters of...and all within ear shot of potential
customers....and some with children. I cleared myself of them, partly
because of theie completely unprofessional language and partly because
of the subject matter of the conversation as they gossiped about other
builders...who were more skilled than an of them. This little gossip circle
made up of the same guys has become a fixture at the major shows, but I
guess they make each other feel bad as they poorly represent the trade.

    It's a simple matter of courtesy and consideration and both take a little
bit of discipline, and self denial...which some folks will not invest for the
simple fact that they feel that their desires and feeling are more
important than those of others.

   Take it from a guy who could....and did....cuss the paint off the wall
with no regard for where I was or who was present out of a combination
of self centeredness and laziness. It can change if you want it to and are
willing to take the measures to bring it about, but if it doesn't after it has
been addressed, alot about the person is revealed.

     I lived offending people with my inconsiderate and self serving
language for a long time and just decided it was time for me to start
using the reasonably decent grasp I had on the English language to
express my self instead. I grew up late and this was one of the last pieces
of my childhood that I released my white-knuckled grip on.

    I can walk away from any exchange knowing that I did my best to
consider the other person's positon and feelings and didn't resort to
playground or intimidation tactics to try to back them off or convince
them of my own.

    No post is ever placed by accident.....even with the absence of an edit
button. There are a string of opportunities to edit anything prior to
permanently posting so we have to assume that what is posted is
intended...with the exception of typos and grammatical errors.

    I hate to see these threads show up after poor decisions made by
someone...especially at such a great place for professionals to come and
represent the craft and the industry that they are part of.

All the best,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher]   


    At a major guitar show a few years ago, i was amazed at the lak of

professionalism shown by a group of builders as they stood around

talking. They sounded like a bunch of construction workers on a job site

rather than professionals at a venue representing the craft that they are

supposedly masters of...a
   
All the best,

Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars[/QUOTE]

As person who has spent almost 30 years as a PROFESSIONAL in the construction industry, that doesn't swear, I will refrain from expressing my immediate reaction I had when I read this.  Lets just say that not all construction workers are the illiterate dolts that Hollywood likes to portray them as, or as the elites seem to think they are.  Just because our collars are blue, that doesn't mean that we do nothing but drink beer, scratch ourselves, hoot and holler at passing women, or cuss like sailors.  A lot of us are professionals and like to portray ourselves as such.

As for swearing in the forums, the rules are crystal clear and nobody swears in a forum without knowing exactly what they are doing.  Although I won't melt if I read an F-bomb, I would prefer that I didn't have to.

Now wait a minute... I was a sailor, and I don't cuss.

Al

Good bye Grumpy. Come back anytime.

As Kevin said, we've all done our share of cussin', it's just that this forum is for dis-cussin', guitars that is.

All have cussed and fallen short.

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Come to think of it, I'm also a construction worker.

Al

Actually, I do cuss, a little... but not very often.

Al

David,
   Wow! That came out of left field. No offense intended since I grew up in
the building trades and was shoulder to shoulder with construction
workers in every field from electrical to roofing every day. My collar was
blue when I went to work for the majority of my life, too....and it still is
for that matter, so your immediate reaction was wasted and misdirected.

    The majority of the guys on the job sites were skilled craftsmen with
little concern for monitoring their language or behavior and that was my
intended point. It was their concern to demonstrate their professionalism
with their hands, tools and experience and that's where it ended in most
cases. I know you weren't referring to me as an elite since that's as far
from true as could be and since you have no idea who I am.

   I understand that there are exceptions in every field and I simply chose
one that i was completely familiar with and exposed to for many years.
You can find guys using the same lazy profanity in a meeting room on
Wall Street or in any major corporation..in the whitest of whit collar
venues...so there's not too much to worry about for you being stamped
with the stigma of a streotype.

    I came to realize after getting to know some very wealthy and
successful high end business people in New York, Boston and LA that
education does not increase integrity, courtesy or professionalism in
anyone...no matter what field you're in. Some of the most honest and
considerate guys I've even met are blue collar guys just like you and me,
but the facts are the facts.

    I appreciate your position in defending those who are exceptions, but
you'd honestly have to admit that you're not the norm in the
trades...especially on the job site. I still have loads of friends who are
buildiers, contractors and iron workers and they've come to respect me
and the changes I've made enough to modify their language significantly
when they visit, but not so much on the job.

    Relax and see where I'm coming from. Sorry it offended you, but it's
where I come from and what I know so we're from the same camp. Sure,
nobody's going to melt from hearing the F-bomb, but I just try to let
people know that it does much less for them than thinking before they
speak will.

    It does far less to damage us than it does to damage the perception
that people have of those who throw it around indiscriminately and
inappropriately.


Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


   

Perhaps we should see if Peter and other pinless users would let us use or liscence their designs. Diversion is good.

     I've never been a sailor or spent any time around sailors so I couldn't use
that analogy...I just picked one that I knew to be real from experience.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

That's it, I'm a Pinhead!   Don't know yet if I'm a 5* pinhead or a 3* pinhead, but I'm pretty sure I'm not slotted.  

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Wow, Waddy, that is funny

Good nite all.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson