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Has anyone made a novax style fingerboard? I had someone ask me about one today and I don't know how big of a project this is, or how much to upcharge for it...

I suspect a lot.

Any thoughts on how to cut the fingerboard and lay one of these puppies out would be appreciated.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

John Kinnaird has been asking the same ?'s so you might shoot him a PM and see if he has any info.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Email Harry Fleishman...he is the expert on Novax fingerboards. In fact Harry once told me he was the inventor and Novax beat him to the patent office. Anyway, my understand is that it is very easy to do and played just like a regular guitar. You suposedly don't even realy notice it! Supposed to be more comfy too. Harry can really help. www.fleishmaninstruments.com

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

I have not found out much to date since my customer has not made up his mind yet. But, I do believe I will charge $500 to do the job, considering the extra work involved and that $75 of that goes Novax. There are guides to be made to help with the actual cutting of the fret slots, one on each side of the fingerboard to correspond to the different string lengths. I understand that if you go ahead and pay your money, you get a step by step guide. Hope that's true

John

I bet a google on Novax will bring up his website

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I'm having a hard time trying to understand why someone can't make a fretboard with the scale lengths changing from string to string without paying a guy $75. That's ridiculous. Absurd. Just make it and don't call it a "Novax Scale". Absurd. Absolutely absurd.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Yeah, I have found his site, it goes into a lot of background on why he thinks it is better, etc. etc. But it doesn't show you specifically how to make one or lay out the bridge. That is the info I am after.

I seem to recall Mike Doolin having something about it at his site once, but I can't seem to find it now.

Brock Poling38525.6281018518

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Here is Mike's article.John How38525.6452893519

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

So that's easy to get around...you simply call it a "Multi-scale Fretboard" and you're golden. It's such a load of crap! Hey, I think I'll go for a patent on a regular fretboard. I'm sure nobody has thought of that one. You folks will all have to pay me $10 each for every guitar you build. Absurd.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Don, it's patented, not trademarked. In other words, it's not the name that is protected, but the idea. Try that and you may find yourself in court. (Actually, I believe the name is trademarked as well, but he definitely has a patent on the concept).

I'm not saying I disagree with your sentiments, but what you are suggesting is illegal.

[QUOTE=John How] Here is Mike's article.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

Incidentally, I have no problem paying Novax for the license to use it. I am just trying to find out how much work it will be to build it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I see your point Don. How long does something have to be in the public domain before it is just common shared knowledge and unpatentable. Probably the standard fretboard with the rule of "18" is unpatentable, at least I would surely hope so. The variable length scale has been out there before novax but maybe not long enough for the patent guys to realize it should be in the public domain. Intellectual property raises a lot of interesting question.

I agree with Don that this patent is dumb. However, The two major ways of challenging a patent are 1. prior art and 2. obvious to one skilled in the art. The prior art does not have to be widely distributed. If you can find an explicit example of a fan fret guitar that predates the Novax system, you might be able to challenge the patent. However, you might not. You have to read the claims of the patent. Novax has a system for laying out their frets. Did the example of prior art actually use this system. Are the frets in the same place that they would have been had they used the system. If not, it might not be prior art.

The obvious challenge is much harder to make. The counter argument is that "If it was so obvious, why wasn't it being done?" For centuries we've all put up with guitars digging into our upper arms until Linder Manzer thought of the wedge. One glance at a wedge will tell you that a guitar build that way will be much more comfortable to play. Hearing one will tell you that it doesn't hurt the sound. Obvious? Yes, after the fact. Of course, Linda doesn't charge to use her design but only asks that you give her credit. Even then some builders don't do that.


Mike Mahar38525.7027314815

There was, by the way, a 17th, or 18th, century viol of sorts that utilized an off-set, "fanned" system of tied gut "frets". Prior art DOES exist - and frankly, I've always wondered how Ralph was able to get and keep his patent.

Patent lawyers cost $$$. Cheaper to just pay the $75 licence fee.

Some guy in australia patented the wheel here a few years ago. He was a lawyer trying to prove a point about how screwed up the patent system has become, and it's a worldwide problem not just here in australia.

I pay Ralph for each fanned fret I do, there are drawings and articles from the early part of last century describing this system so it's certainly not new at all, Ralph just figured out how to make money from it. I've talked to both Harry and Ralph about the system and I have to say that Harry's much more knowledgeable about it, plus he has some of the most common sense simple ideas for doing things I have ever seen (and he's a great person).

Brock when I get time this weekend I'll take a picture of the jig that I built to cut the frets on the table saw, it's based on one that Harry did (he showed it to me when I took his fretting class). I just have to find the box that it's in

I cut my first one by hand and the others all on the table saw and have not looked back...

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

[QUOTE=Sprockett]Brock when I get time this weekend I'll take a picture of the jig that I built to cut the frets on the table saw, it's based on one that Harry did (he showed it to me when I took his fretting class). I just have to find the box that it's in
[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I appreciate it.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Dave-SKG] Email Harry Fleishman...he is the expert on Novax fingerboards. In fact Harry once told me he was the inventor and Novax beat him to the patent office. Anyway, my understand is that it is very easy to do and played just like a regular guitar. You suposedly don't even realy notice it! Supposed to be more comfy too. Harry can really help. www.fleishmaninstruments.com

[/QUOTE]

I don't know why but you guys just don't listen to me.
Sprockett is dead-on.

I told you about Somogyi...no one listened until...

I am so misunderstood and not appreciated Dave-SKG38526.6253935185

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

It's certainly true that the patent system is screwed up. Basically you can patent anything and it's yours until somebody challenges it. In most cases it's not worth anybodies while.

However, part of the patent is the reason behind it. Citterns used the 'fanned fret' idea in the 16th or 17th century, iirc. The problem they had was that wire strings don't have as wide a tuning range as gut, and they had problems getting the low notes to sound good. This was before anybody thought of making wound strings.

Novax came at it from a different angle. His claim is that there is a high frequency compression wave that travels along the string the way the air in a pipe vibrates, and that this can alter the sound of the guitar. Since the frequency of that compression wave is a function of the string material and length alone, and has nothing to do with the pitch or tension, this could account for some of he differences between, say, Strats and Les Pauls. His idea in fanning the frets was originally to get Strat sounding basses and Les Paul trebles. He's pretty much right about the physics, as far as that goes, but I don't know how much it really effects the tone. I _think_ he may also have made claims about the ergonomic effects of fanning the frets.

Thus, if you make a faned fret guitar to equalize the tensions on the strings or so that you can extend the use of plain strings down further, you're probably not in technical violation of his patent. If you make it to get the timbre of a Strat and a Les Paul in one guitar, you almost certainly are. If you make it for the ergonomic benefit, you may very well be. Of course, _you_ can always claim that you were making it for some other reason, and the benefits Ralph claimed just 'happened'.

He himself was apparently unaware of the early fanned fret instruments: not surprising, since the Early Music guys and Rockers don't hang out together much. He didn't push his patent for a long time, so far as I know. However, Ralph is a nice guy, and he had to give up making instruments when macular degeneration set in, so he could use the money. I think if I made one I'd probably get in touch with him, if only out of courtesy.

Let me make it very clear that I was not speaking against Ralph at all, I don't mind paying the money because basically he was smart enough to get the patent and it's only $75 (and I make the client pay for it).

I spent a good 2 hours in his shop talking about the guitar I was building at the time, got some really good ideas and got some not so good ones but that's just the way Ralph is wired. He was very kind to a beginning builder and very excited about the system.

The only trouble with the system is you need to be DEAD-ON when you cut the frets and it's not easy to do (the jig I have really helps), also setting the bridge can be a little bit of a challenge. But in the long run it's brought in customers, I have two in the shop, and a request for a 7 string fanned (not sure about that one yet).

Cheers

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars