Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Nov 27, 2024 8:14 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:08 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Australia
Ive been french polishing my latest classical for a couple of months now
and its proving to be an absolute P in the A instrument to get finished.

I started FP'ing the instrument following Robbie O'Briens method after
pore filling using Z poxy. After the bosy coats went on I noticed the
shellac surface breaking up into fine cracks possibly due to my not
leaving enough time between body sessions and/or not removing all the
olive oil during spiriting off sessions. I decided to go back to bare wood
and start again but in the process removed alot of the Zpoxy from the
pores. Adding more Zpoxy over a surface with shellac in some of the
pores didnt seem like a good idea so I infilled pores with pumice after
applying 3 shellac wash coats. Since then after 3-4 body sessions Ive
noticed minute areas which from a distance look like trapped dust in the
shellac but on closer inspection are actually minute breaks in the surface
of the shellac. I thought it might be stray grains of pumice lifting out of
the pores but this is not the case. The phenomena seems to happen after
about the 4th body session. Ive tried levelling off the areas with 400 grit
W and D but after a few body sessions the tiny breaks in the surface of
the finish re-appear.

What am I doing wrong? Its driving me nuts.

Sorry...tried to get some photos but the breaks in the shellac surface are
to small and subtle to be caught on my camera.

Cheers Martin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:04 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
I have to see pics to say for sure. How much oil are you using? How old is the shellac?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:35 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States
Well Martin, Michael is certainly THE man to ask, but my 2 cents worth...sounds like bad shellac. I have heard some people say that there Shellac never goes bad...mine sure does...maybe it's the brand I buy or how I store it, I don't know...but it does go bad.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:01 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:21 am
Posts: 805
Location: United States
First name: Jim Howell
I'm of the school that says sheelac does not age well as a liquid.  I dump mine after six months max, but in reality, when I make a batch from flakes, I make only 8 fl oz at a time.  Plenty for one guitar, maybe two.  The bottle is seldom around after 8 to 19 weeks.

_________________
Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:02 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:21 am
Posts: 805
Location: United States
First name: Jim Howell
That would be 'shellac'... sheesh....

_________________
Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:09 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:21 am
Posts: 805
Location: United States
First name: Jim Howell

Mercy...I'm home with the plague, probably should just be reading and not typing...


8 to 10 weeks! 


 


_________________
Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:14 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 64
Location: United States
I think your instinct to do the pumice fill rather than layer on more epoxy was a good one.  It sounds to me like the finish is crazing over the top of an entrapped oil film.  I don't know O'Brien's method, but if there is any oil trapped in the pores, then it may to continue to seep out despite your efforts to spirit it away.

-Ben



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:41 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
If the proper type of oil at the proper stages and at the proper amounts was used I doubt oil is the issue. My first suspect would be the shellac.

Try the shellac on a clean piece of glass (shellac only) to see if the same thing happens

I have Frenched polished lots of things for thirty years and never had oil to cause a crazing issue.

The two oils I use are "EXTRA VIRGIN" (this phase is important) Olive oil and Walnut oil. not any Olive oil will be pure and free of ingredients that can hinder the finish. It must say "EXTRA VIRGIN" Olive oil That is a industry phrase meaning it contains nothing but Olive oil.

If you are fol owing a proved FP technique Like the Milburn or others and using a quality oil at the proper time and spiriting off after 10-15 min of cure time, at least every other session. Then the oil will rise to the top and be removed in the spiriting off process.

How and where you store your muneca between sessions is important to avoid picking up possible contaminates.
I use a Ziploc bag.

Changing the outer cover when it starts to show wear, major discolor and dirt improves transfer.

The fact that you describe what sounds like crazing keep leading me back to bad cut of shellac.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:07 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:05 pm
Posts: 503
Location: Portland, Oregon
The Shellac may be the problem. I was kinda wondering about how thick you are applying the coats. When I started using shellac, I learned early on that I was applying way too much with way too little pressure. I had a problem with everything looking great until I had built up a few coats(looking great and smooth), and then I noticed small cracks forming. I allowed it set for a couple days and the cracks open a bit more as the shellac dried. I wound up taking it back down, then used the same shellac(applied thinner and with more pressure) and no problems. Not sure if that may be the problem, but food for thought.

Also, I noted that you used three wash coats(and I really don't know how light your was coats are) before filling with pumice. I try to use as little shellac as possible before filling. Too much shellac in the pores led me to shrink back.

Peace,Rich


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:19 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:05 pm
Posts: 853
Location: United States
First name: Josh
Last Name: French
City: Houston
State: TX
French polishing is such a forgiving and simple process that its hard for me to believe it could be anything other than the shellac itself causing the problem... try mixing up another batch and see what happens.

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:09 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Wash coats are 1# cuts body sessions are 2# cuts.

Really get the notion of coat out of your head when thinking body session and beyond. You are not adding coats you are amalgamating sessions into one continuous film

I do one body session overlapping my swirls or figure eights by about half or a little less. never going back over an area within that session.

After cure for that session (I prefer 2 hours but 20 min will do in a pinch) I spirit-off with the grain. This is a quick glide on and glide off motion with a moderate amount of pressure, going with the grain from one end to the other non stop. This does two things. Removes the oil from the previous body session and levels the ridging left by the boding session.
your spirit-off load should be about 6 drops of alcohol, no shellac. There is residual shellac in the inner pad and that is all you need when spiriting-off. if done after every body session there should be no need to use sand paper to level the film prior to glazing.

One more thing to watch out for is your body load. It should be first 4-5 drops of 2# shellac 2-3 drops of alcohol and 1-2 drops of oil. then tap the muneca on a piece of white paper till you get an evenly distributed spotty pattern of transfer. if the you get a solid pattern you are too wet and end up actually removing shellac as you body. Too Dry and you stick. As soon as the vapor trail starts to disappear very quickly it is time to reload. This vapor trail should be visible for about2-3 seconds after the position of muneca. If you do not see the trail at all you are too wet or do not have enough alcohol in the load. Now one eye drop will make a big difference here so don't drown the muneca in alcohol. Just 2-3 eye drop should do the trick every body load.

One more thing. I do not know how you prepared your inner pad. You should have soaked the inner pad with #2 cut of shellac, ringed it out and then stored it in a air tight or at least dust tight container for 24 hours prior to starting the project. This allows the shellac in the inner pad to some what cure. Then when you are boding the alcohol you ad at loading softens it to the right viscosity that as you are boding it wicks shellac from the inner pad to the outer pad. If the inner pad is too dry or too wet it will not wick properly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:36 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
I really should not have said soak the inner pad. saturate would have been a better term.

Keep in mind when reading my posts on applications that I am of the old school of thought. I believe that the traditional old world slow build French polish technique builds a nice hard film that lasts for up to a century or more.

I am not knocking any-ones fast build process. I am just saying this is how I was taught and this is how I do it.

It takes more elbow grease but it is a couple of centuries tried and true method. It is more forgiving than I may make it sound. But the principles of the muneca flow need to be understood to be able to adapt to changes in weather and circumstances.



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:58 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 14, 2006 6:26 am
Posts: 188
Location: United States

I had a similar problem with crazing on my first FP attempt last year (actually my first attempt at everything).  As opposed to Michael’s description of making one pass of overlapping strokes per bodying session, I was making multiple passes over the same area (would usually divide the back and front into 4 zones) until the muneca started to drag.  I would then add the couple of drops of olive oil and then would make even more passes over the same area unil the muneca again started to drag.  At that point I considered that particular bodying session finished for the area I was working on and would move on to the next quadrant.  I would guess that each square inch received 10 to 12 strokes during my typical sessions (not at one time but moving back and forth across the entire application zone).  I made sure the muneca was loaded properly and always watched for a proper vapor trail.  I also always spirited off between each bodying session as Michael recommends.  I probably ended up with 10 to 12 bodying sessions when I was finished.  The end product was a overall smooth glassy finish with occasional small defects consistent with a first attempt.


 


However, I developed some small areas of fairly significant crazing about half way through the process as has been described above.  I attributed it at the time to fluctuations in the humidity levels and temperature as a result of working in my basement shop in the middle of a Chicago winter.  I level sanded those areas a bit and then stiffed off the areas a couple of times to melt the shellac and flatten the remaining ridges in the crazed zone.  That seemed to work quite will and the level glossy finish returned.    


 


A year later, the smooth glassy finish I completed the process with has developed some very fine crazing in quite a few areas.  It’s almost invisible unless you inspect the surface at just the right angle.  Based on Michael’s application method above, I would guess my shellac applications were too thick in the bodying sessions and the finish slowly crazed as the shellac completely cured over the last year.


 


Michael, I assume I could go back now with some additional stiffing sessions with alcohol only and remelt the surface and eliminate the crazing?


_________________
Doug Mills
Chicago, Illinois


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:21 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Yep. You may have to spirit off a good bit.

i have no issue with those that make multi passes of an area if the muneca is properly loaded and tapped down as I described above as long as it is not over done.

I don't because I want to build a level film as I go. if you do multi passes then you are not likely to build relatively the same thickness every where

I really doubt the weather is what crazed your finish.
I suspect that it may be water absorption into the mix or alcohol (I guess you can blame the weather some for that) or bad mix of shellac

I am fortunate to live in an area where high humidity is considered 45% unless it raining day after day.

Honestly I have never had French polish type finish craze on me other than for bad shellac or surface contamination.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:31 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:31 am
Posts: 174
Location: Leucadia, CA
First name: Dean
Last Name: Bayles
City: Leucadia
State: CA
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Any chance you may of had silicone contamination?

Dean


_________________
Dean


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:38 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Australia
Thanks for all the replies guys, much appreciated.

To date I've changed out the shellac, oil and alcohol so all those possibilities
have been covered. It would seem that Michaels suggestion of oil trapped in
the pores is the most likely. Im not sure how this would be dealt with.

Cheers Martin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:48 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
It was Ben. unless you were adding oil and shellac while pumice filling I really doubt that.

If you were then maybe. Then I would read the pumice filling section in the Milburn tutorial. you do not add shellac to your muneca while pumice filling. the residual shellac in the inner pad is all that is needed during pumice filling. Fresh added to the muneca will only cause a mess with the pumice.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:37 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:13 am
Posts: 1398
Location: United States
I've seen absolutely beautiful FP done over epoxy pore fill.   But give the epoxy a couple of days' cure before you start the FP.   The build speed will then easily offset the cure time, and you'll get minimal shrinkage into the pores.   

You can also try the Romanillos trick of sizing the wood with egg white before starting the FP.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:54 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:56 am
Posts: 10707
Location: United States
Rick I did not even think of it but off gassing and shrinkage of the epoxy may have been the problem if less than a couple days fom fill to first body session. Good cathch


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:54 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 5:23 am
Posts: 2347
Location: United States
Martin,

Cracking is usually due to substrate issues. In this case the epoxy you put under the shellac. If the shellac has gone bad is doesn't dry properly and leaves a gummy mess. This doesn't sound like your problem.I also suggest you let the epoxy cure completely before applying the shellac over the top.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:27 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Australia
The epoxy had a good 2-3 days to set before I put anything over it. The only
source of trapped oil I can think of is while leveling back during body
sessions. Its possible that i sanded through to bare wood in a few spots and
some oil got into the wood. This is all I can think of as a logical explanation.

My options dont seem too numerous. If I cant get the contaminant out of the
rosewood pores then I guess I have no option but to replace the back.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:23 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:53 pm
Posts: 64
Location: United States
If spiriting/stiffing doesn't take care of the issue, and you have to go back down to the wood, then you can use naphtha to help get rid of any oil residue.

I didn't mean to imply that you should have used any oil during the pore filling steps... only that it could have mistakenly ended up there.  I don't know the method you used.  Some folks (like Eugene Clark) advocate using mineral oil for the bodying, which is harder to remove than olive oil.

I still can't figure out what "bad" shellac flakes are, perhaps because I've never experienced any.  Maybe waxy shellac flakes?  Certainly, if the liquid solution is left around too long, the shellac (an acid) esterifies with the alcohol, and the ester never hardens.

-Ben



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:23 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:21 pm
Posts: 1055
Location: Australia
Okay heres the plan:

1. remove shellac and sand back to bare wood. Ill then go to work with some   
alcohol (naptha a bit hard to get here) and get rid of any oil in the pores
before starting again.
2. If the above doesnt work then the back is coming off.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:24 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:34 am
Posts: 1906
Location: United States

I think Robbie O'brien hit it on the head...if it were the Shellac only, and it was bad...it would be a gummy mess not cracking. After you sand back to wood...I would use Naptha to "wash" the wood real well and then try usin some Z-poxy for a pore fill. If you did "michael's glass test" then you will know in a few days ( while letting the z-poxy cure) if the Shellac was bad. I have had bad Shellac, but it always wound up having a drying problem that resulted in a soft or gummy finish, never had a cracking problem.


_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:18 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:50 pm
Posts: 2711
Location: Victoria, BC
First name: John
Last Name: Abercrombie
Status: Amateur
Martin-
Naptha is also 'lighter fluid' for cigarette/pipe lighters (Ronsonol here in Canada- your brands are probably different)- check your 'smoke shop'.
Camp stove fuel can also be used - we call it 'Coleman fuel' over here- 'white petrol'??

Cheers
John


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 50 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com