Official Luthiers Forum!

Small is the New Big, Brock?

Guys, look into some T-shirt companies like Threadless, American
Apparel, etc. They can hardly keep up with the demand and they're
expensive for their target bracket.

When people think what they're getting is special and higher quality than
what they can get somewhere else, they're likely to love buying it. When
it comes to guitars, people love buying a story.

The main picture outside of economic factors mentioned seemed, for me, to be- "hobby builders are building pretty good guitars and don't need to set the price in our niche market, therefore robbing the established luthiers of their typical client as the "lack-of- knowledge" buyer can easily lump newby with pro because these things are getting easier to build (cnc-etc...) and the info is out there that never was before. Why pay $6,000.00 for a hand built guitar when Joe X can also build one by hand, even though he has really only built a few.. it's still a nice guitar, and sounds "good enough for me".
That is what is making the pro builders lose commissions.
Only the really high end educated buyer will care about the high end builders, the rest will go with what is clearly really nice, better than a "Guitar Center" guitar, and also affordable because the luthier that made it does it "just for fun"

Throw stones if you want to but that's the bulk what I got out of it.


Craig L

_________________
www.handcraftinlay.com

In the classical guitar world, it is clearly assumed that the instrument of choice is going to be from an individual luthier - factory guitars don't enter the picture beyond the advanced student level. Why is it that, in the steel string world, the factory brands still hold sway over the individual reputations? Why are Martin and Taylor more recognizable than Somogyi, etc? Is there something less immediate about the connection between performers and their instruments' builders? What is the difference?

Jim

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=clavin] The main picture outside of economic factors mentioned seemed, for me, to be- "hobby builders are building pretty good guitars and don't need to set the price in our niche market, therefore robbing the established luthiers of their typical client as the "lack-of- knowledge" buyer can easily lump newby with pro because these things are getting easier to build (cnc-etc...) and the info is out there that never was before. Why pay $6,000.00 for a hand built guitar when Joe X can also build one by hand, even though he has really only built a few.. it's still a nice guitar, and sounds "good enough for me".
That is what is making the pro builders lose commissions.
Only the really high end educated buyer will care about the high end builders, the rest will go with what is clearly really nice, better than a "Guitar Center" guitar, and also affordable because the luthier that made it does it "just for fun"

Throw stones if you want to but that's the bulk what I got out of it.


Craig L [/QUOTE]

No. No. No.

First, nobody is being "robbed" of anything. To "rob" something from someone implies ownership (or at a very minimum... a "right: to something.) The last I checked we do live in a capitalistic economy where buyers and sellers are free to choose.

Second. Supply and demand curves and the other basics of econ 101 just are not applicable. Plus Judy makes a subtle connection that guitars are in some way interchangable -- this just isn't the case. Guitars are not commodities there are quality differences -- real or perceived. Also, I challenge one of Judy's core assumptions in that buyers who DO NOT buy one of the icon's of lutherie turn to a young builder in lieu of buying from them. If a study were done, I would bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of buyers who don't buy from the "big guns" turn more often to an custom shop, or a small production firm.

If every luthier in the world were selling 20 guitars a year there simply isn't any real worry that we are competing with each other. We can find 20 customers a year out of the herds and herds of people buying high end production guitars, guitars from small shops, etc.

Occassionally we may see a potential commission go to another builder, but again at 20 guitars a year, if you are doing your marketing right you will be able to exhaust capacity. The market is plenty big enough for everyone to do very well.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=clavin]Only the really high end educated buyer will care about
the high end builders, the rest will go with what is clearly really nice,
better than a "Guitar Center" guitar, and also affordable because the
luthier that made it does it "just for fun"[/QUOTE]

I haven't read it, but it almost sounds like some builders are getting
irritated because the new guys are catching up. It seems like an
opportunity for them to differentiate themselves.

[QUOTE=James Orr] [QUOTE=clavin]Only the really high end educated buyer will care about
the high end builders, the rest will go with what is clearly really nice,
better than a "Guitar Center" guitar, and also affordable because the
luthier that made it does it "just for fun"[/QUOTE]

I haven't read it, but it almost sounds like some builders are getting
irritated because the new guys are catching up. It seems like an
opportunity for them to differentiate themselves.[/QUOTE]

I'm sort of wondering how long Judy's waiting list is, and why she is complaining. I can't imagine that you can get one of her's tomorrow.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=jtkirby] In the classical guitar world, it is clearly assumed that the instrument of choice is going to be from an individual luthier - factory guitars don't enter the picture beyond the advanced student level. Why is it that, in the steel string world, the factory brands still hold sway over the individual reputations? Why are Martin and Taylor more recognizable than Somogyi, etc? Is there something less immediate about the connection between performers and their instruments' builders? What is the difference?

Jim

[/QUOTE]

Oh, what the heck, I'll answer my own question.

History.

History to a classical player is Torres, Hauser, etc.
History to a steel string player is Martin, Gibson, etc.
Which tradition has factories in place with the right names?

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I don't really buy that the top end builders are being challenged by the weekend warriors. I ordered a guitar from Judy back before I built myself. I would have never considered a "good enough" $1000 guitar from a guy who made 3. I already had a "good enough" guitar in my Taylor. If I hadn't custom ordered from a private builder, I would have gone with someone like Huss & Dalton, who turn out a fantastic guitar at their price point.

The rambling thoughts of a beginning luthier, FWIW. Not specific to the article, but in line with the discussion.

There are a handful of pro luthiers charging around $8,000 to $25,000 for a steel string guitar. Do these sound/play "better" than the guitars made by luthiers in the next price tier down ($5,000 to $8,000), or even the next price tier down from that ($3,000 to $5,000)? How many players can honestly discern the difference in sound/playability from similarly executed and appointed instruments?

I suspect the pro luthiers in that top tier are relatively protected, by reputation/aura. A percentage of the buying public is enamored with equating the "best" with the most expensive or most lauded aura. It doesn't really matter if those $8K to $25K guitars are better than the best of the $3K guitars offered. Interestingly, I have read that in a recession/depression, that many luxury item sales do just fine.

I bet that next tier down, $5K to $8K, are the luthiers that will feel the biggest erosion in sales due to the influx of scores of new hand-built builders with the skills, tools, and materials to offer guitars for $2k or $3K that compete in every way other than brand recognition.

There also has to be a saturation point in the market when every pro luthier will find it more difficult to sell quantities. Not impossible, but more difficult, requiring more marketing skill rather than just word of mouth.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

[QUOTE=jtkirby]

I'm sort of wondering how long Judy's waiting list is, and why she is complaining. I can't imagine that you can get one of her's tomorrow.[/QUOTE]

Judy's Web site has had this wording for many months, if not longer...
"With a current wait list of 3 years, I have decided to close the list and accept no more orders until further notice."

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada

1) Brock your right- robbed is NOT the term. I retract that word. I believe in competition.

2) I never said anyone is "complaining", especially Judy. I would think she has a waiting list far longer than most of us for our products. The overall "sad" tone of the article does imply a few things, to me at least.

These are-
A) Innovation is not happening anymore, or at a very low rate, due to fast and efficient dissemination of easy information with less need for experimentation to make a guitar what beginners expect it to be, a basic guitar. real innovation is slowing, and thus bringing an end to the "golden era"

B)Weekend warriors are being called luthiers and they have clearly not earned the title. Beginner and experienced luthiers are thrown into this mix by humans on the street, and it lessens the pro luthiers aura, which they have worked hard for and most likely earned if they are respected.

c) People tend to believe what they see in print so chat rooms, etc.. can be potentially dangerous places for educated luthiery, let alone places of argument between pros and newbies with strong opinions that matter less, and are less qualified, but very vociferous, and it turns away the pros who really don't have all that much time for a beginner's debate regarding what they really have learned through time is accurate advice/information.

Brock I agree that it seems there are well enough people on Earth looking for quality items in luthiery that there is little competition between hand builders. What seems to be the real "monster in the box" is a slow economy in general that makes it hard for people to have disposable income for nice toys like guitars, or inlay, etc.. so they opt for the more affordable. Hence Guitar Center..

So how does one market their high end merchandise in the beginning?
I am often told high end inlay belongs in ROBB Report, and maybe it does, but I am sure I can't afford an add there!! breaking in to the high end market just doesn't seem that easy.
CL.

_________________
www.handcraftinlay.com

My take of Judy's article is a bit more direct. The mega message I took from it is that hobby builders are no longer struggling alone and with collective sharing of process are building some pretty darn good $1500-$2000 guitars. This might..might..be starting to bother some of the old guard builders and their hard won long standing reputations and $6-10,000 instruments. This is what the very long article boiled down for me...maybe not for anyone else and that's fine.

As much as I don't want this to, I'm sure it will sound snotty: some of the
descriptions are beginning to make it sound like a flashback of the RIAA
after Apple created the iTunes Music Store.

Larry, I was there and sat through the presentation. From my perspective you nailed it on the head.

At this time I am not building guitars for others or have plans to. With
that said, how do you see the things discussed here effecting the
customer?

James:

     I don't see it really touching most at all unfortunatly! I talked to a somebody at Guitar Center about two weeks ago, while buying strings. They didn't have a clue that small luthier guitars we're really available even though they did know one person that built them.

   I believe, as others have mentioned, that the issue is really that so many are building excellent instruments, not that it really affects any individual luthier other than some turning a slight shade of green!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

science museum maintaining the exotic animals, sea turtles, raptors (birds of prey- etc..) It is a very large building in downtown Fort Lauderdale and very passionately and politically run, very market strategy oriented- very cut throat and serious on the inside. They talked of career goals, we had big budgets, we researched, immature bosses threatened our jobs when they were at risk, we had an Imax theater- presidents were hired and fired, it was a huge hoopla to work there. Working there it felt like the most intense part of the world......


You would walk down the block and NO ONE knew we existed.
people on the street didn't know we were there, some knew of the Imax but no one knew there was a science museum attached to it. I told people I worked there and 99 percent of the time the response was "where's that"? "OOHH you mean the Imax theater..."

It seems kinda like that with hand made guitars minus the negative political stuff, but it is a group of very passionate, dedicated individuals that most people on Earth have no idea exist it seems...
Any thoughts on how to change that?
I believe the average guitarist wants a guitar hand made for them personally.
Who doesn't want something special just for them?

Craig L.

_________________
www.handcraftinlay.com

I know many musicians and, for the most part, they middle of the road factory instruments. When I talk to them about a full custom instrument I get the following responses:

• "I can't afford that". I get this from players who just spent $6,000 for a special addition Martin.
• "I wouldn't be able to take it to where I usually play". Don't want to get beer spilled on it.
• "I can't imagine buying a guitar that I haven't played".
• "I don't want to wait that long".
• "I'm not 'good enough' for a fancy custom guitar". I hear this one most of all.

I think that the prospect of ordering a custom guitar from an individual luthier is just "too scary" for many players.

Lutherie is a funny business. We want to sell high priced custom items to a group that is famous for not having any money (musicians).

[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] I know many musicians and, for the most part, they middle of the road factory instruments. When I talk to them about a full custom instrument I get the following responses:

• "I can't afford that". I get this from players who just spent $6,000 for a special addition Martin.
• "I wouldn't be able to take it to where I usually play". Don't want to get beer spilled on it.
• "I can't imagine buying a guitar that I haven't played".
• "I don't want to wait that long".
• "I'm not 'good enough' for a fancy custom guitar". I hear this one most of all.

I think that the prospect of ordering a custom guitar from an individual luthier is just "too scary" for many players.

Lutherie is a funny business. We want to sell high priced custom items to a group that is famous for not having any money (musicians).
[/QUOTE]

99% of all the guitars I have sold have NOT been to what I would consider "musicians". They have been Lawyers,Doctors,collectors.
One "collecter"actually did not play guitar!

[QUOTE=Brad Goodman]
99% of all the guitars I have sold have NOT been to what I would consider "musicians". They have been Lawyers,Doctors,collectors.
One "collecter"actually did not play guitar![/QUOTE]


BINGO!!

That is the key. (At least as far as I see it).

Many people seem to try to find the **REALY** good musicians thinking that they are the ones who can appreciate a finely crafted handmade guitar.... True enough... they probably can. But the problem is how many of them can afford one? Some.. but not most.

OTOH.. finding guitar players in markets where YOU KNOW they have the money (Doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc.) you will probably have less trouble finding them and selling them a guitar.

I think marketing for lutheirs breaks down into two basic tracks -- brand building (the stuff you GOTTA do, even if it doesn't have a short term pay off) and sales oriented marketing whose goal is to increase inquiries.

I think that most of us should be looking to PR to fuel our marketing engine. If you do the work yourself it is essentially low-cost/free (not counting the time you invest), it is a TON more effective than any advertising channel, and success in PR begets success (meaning the more coverage you get, the more the press will seek you out.)

There is a GREAT book that I recommend for the DIY Public Relations effort it is called :: Full Frontal PR. It is a very simple approach to finding and getting press.

... now there are those among us who will tell the horror stories of how PR is driven by advertising, etc. I still have a very hard time believing this -- the division between advertising and content is usually so sacred that no credible publication will ever make advertising conditional to content... but the sources I have heard this from are so credible that I can't discount them. So ... perhaps you should not focus on the usual suspects amongst the guitar world.

Maybe the better targets would be publications that cater to your "general" audience ... and then attempt to pick the guitar players out of that crowd. What about a magazine aimed at dentists, doctors, lawyers, sail boaters, retired executives, the newly elderly, ... whatever. If you are clever about how you position your media pitch (the story isn't ABOUT you... it, it about something of general interest that just might spotlight you.)

For instance what if you pitched a story about how many professionals are turning from tried and true leisure past times (golf, tennis, country clubs) and are turning to an enthusiasm to play music as an alternative. They could showcase a couple of your clients talk about their hand built guitars, etc. etc. One great endorsement from a past client in a format like that and your phone will ring for weeks.

Even the Internet has its own form of PR. Some of the player boards are a great source of interest / commissions.

(... we weren't going to make much of an announcement about this just yet, but Lance and I are starting a board for players -- The Acoustic Voice (http://www.theacousticvoice.com) it is our aim to create a symbiosis between musicians, collectors, and luthiers.... think myspace meets a forum. This is going to be the platform that we are going to reposition the Luthier's Showcase on top of. It is not a shill to pimp the work of hand builders, but a true community where all parties can promote thier passions -- musicians can show off their work there too, collectors can build profiles of their collection, etc.) --- but I digress....


PR is the way to go to promote your work.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

That's going to be cool, guys.

     It bothers me to go into a GC and see all these, for lack of a better word, guitars hanging on the wall and I know they sell them!

     Playing is believeing! I've heard more than one case of luthiers offering shipping tryouts for people interested. There's a problem there because most guys I know building are up to their eye balls building now, or they're small just building out of a garage!

     A well presented web site is important, but in my opinion a small one.

     I think, for the buyer, its pretty scary to commission, what's really, site unseen! I think word of mouth, is much more important, than word of mouse.   

     There were two asses called the Kip brothers who built tooling for the plastics industry, as much as I had problems with their approach, they did have a excellent philosophy that applies to luthiers as well.

     They would say, "take care of quality and profits take care of themselves"!

_________________
Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Billy, I think the problem with guitar sites is exactly as you say---word of
mouse (I like that phrase!). Music isn't literate, but we present it as such.
The web can do so much now that would help people experience your
guitars. High quality video and audio along with interaction through pics
and blogs would be so much more effective than asking your reader to
read endlessly that you too use the highest quality materials and try to
blend form and function.

Professional design is part of branding.

Jim Kirby wrote:
"In the classical guitar world, it is clearly assumed that the instrument of choice is going to be from an individual luthier - factory guitars don't enter the picture beyond the advanced student level. Why is it that, in the steel string world, the factory brands still hold sway over the individual reputations?<snip>What is the difference? "

I'll disagree with the answer you gave to your own question: it's not _just_ tradition. The fact is that it's more difficult to make a classical guitar with world-class tone than it is to make an equivalent steel string. It has to do with the way the strings work, as much as anything. The factories can work to averages, and design with the idea that their weakest set of braces will be end up on the weakest top, and still hit it once in a while. You can't do that with a classical: any overbuilding will sink it.