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But if you put his guitars in a blind listening test with 10 other great builders on this forum , would we really know which guitar was his ,and would it sound that much better?

Depends on the test.  In my experience of hearing a few, in a large room at 30 feet away, his guitar sounded fine but not in a class by itself.  But close up, the ones I've heard are unmistakable.

I first heard one of his guitars about 10-12 years ago.  That sound instantly became a benchmark for me.  I tried a lot of things in the last 10 years to get my guitars to sound more like his.  I took the class in January and I sure wish I'd taken it 10 years ago.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Fair enough John, but it is frustrating to continually hear about this "tight lipped" brotherhood of secrecy. It really isn't the case.
[/QUOTE]

And yet people who have done the course tend not to post pictures of their bracing.

This is weird? I can't say that I have ever met a man more open to sharing and filled with the joy of his craft???  

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Tom Krebs

[QUOTE=PaulB] [QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Fair enough John, but it is frustrating to continually hear about this "tight lipped" brotherhood of secrecy. It really isn't the case.
[/QUOTE]

And yet people who have done the course tend not to post pictures of their bracing. [/QUOTE]


That is just it. It won't help you. The best I can tell you is that is a "whole system" thing, and without having the full story the bracing patterns won't be much good.

I will happily show you a braced top though if you like. I have an AJ I am working on. I will shoot a pic.

But as I said, it won't do much good.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Hesh1956] Historically speaking this "discussion" regarding Ervin, his teaching, and his guitars and the OLF goes back to a misunderstanding IMHO.

Almost a year ago Ervin was getting ready to hold another class in February. He was featured on the OLF to in my view promote his class which can be a wonderful thing if you look at it that way.

However I believe that there was a disconnect in the implementation of Ervin's time with us. Some believed that this would turn into a sort of on-line class with Ervin Somogyi. Ervin was ready to and in fact did answer some of our questions but he was not going to provide any on-line instruction.

Some, like me, had expectations that he would/might and were disappointed with what did not result. But...... when I look back what disappointed me was my own expectations that were not correctly set.

Getting past that is pretty easy if you keep your eye on the the true objective which is learning to build guitars.

What compounds the issue for some is that when our OLF pals take Ervin's class there is a marked change in their participation here on the OLF when they return. This is my opinion of course and if you read further you will see that I have a theory why this may be.

Everyone that I have spoken with who has taken the class and even Ervin will tell you that this class is a mind blowing, life changing "opportunity." Based on the overwhelmingly positive critique of former students I have no doubt that this is indeed the case.

When students return from the class as mentioned they are now armed with methodologies and theory to help them find their own signature sound AND get more repeatable results more often going forward.

The hardest part, which I am guessing here, is for the students to find a way to put the new found knowledge in perspective and practice for their own guitar building goals.

We think that these folks are in a position to provide us with a data dump when in fact they are probably still in some level of shock over all that they have learned and the need to put it into perspective and practice.

Instead of a secret handshake club it is an opportunity that is available, at least for now, to all. The "value" of Ervin's teaching and knowledge is probably priceless and I hope to be fortunate enough to attend one of his classes someday too.

So guys instead of thinking that there is anything sinister happening here or that a chosen few are withholding info from you perhaps see it a different way.

We are living in a time where someone who may indeed be one of the greatest master Luthiers of all time is walking the earth with us. We have the opportunity to take his class if it is important enough to us to do so. Ervin does share his knowledge with others but this knowledge represents "real" value that cannot be found anywhere else so Ervin is entitled to charge a fee.

I am very happy for the guys that I know who have had this opportunity to take Ervin's class. I also understand that their life is more complicated now, perhaps, because of all the misconceptions that may have been dispelled and all of the new things that they learned.

The complaining is getting kind of old now in my view and I personally am the sort that if something upsets me I will do something about it.

What any of us who have not taken Ervin's class can do now to discover for ourselves what it is all about is obviously to take the class. [/QUOTE]


Well put... Thank you.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I much preferred the skull and cross bones theory

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

All I know is that we all maintain the right to share what ever we feel like.
As well as the right to hold back anything we want.

We should never be chastised for exercising that right.

Lets keep this discussion light hearted and friendly please.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I signed up back in August. Ervin will be holding a class February 10 through February 16 of 2008.
Is anyone else here planning to attend?
The comments made here in the past by people I have come to respect, convinced me that I need to take this class. When I look at what I have invested into this adventure it seems to me this class will be well worth its price.

You all (well several anyway) are a bunch of whining, open sourcers, who
act as if knowledge was somehow an entitlement. The people who have
taken Ervin's course, and they range from the fairly inexperienced to
builders with 20 years or more under their belts, felt it was an investment
in their careers to further their understanding of the instrument. Ervin
places a value on his time, as do we all in our various professional
capacities be it guitarmaking or otherwise, so get off your entitled a**es
and stop whining that someone expects to be paid for their knowledge
and experience. Furthermore, Ervin's request that the course knowledge
be kept in the family as it were is to protect both Ervin, who has spent a
great deal of time designing the course and distilling his information and
is entitled to be paid for his efforts, as well as for the student who is
protected by Ervin's request because they have chosen to invest their time
and money to advance their knowledge of the instrument and thereby
hopefully advance their careers and competitive advantage.

For many of us this is a lifetime commitment, a business, a livelihood,
and not just a hobby. Our investment in courses like Ervin's and others
goes to how serious we are about our exploration of the instrument, as
well as our desire to make as good a guitar as we can and perhaps by
investing that time and money in our education make a modest living by
making our instruments that much better than the average builder. It
may surprise you that there are several older builders who would love to
take Ervin's course but will not because they are unwilling to get naked
and expose their approaches to building lest they unwittingly give up
their competitive advantage. Even among my peers (and they include the
folks I'm referring to here) there are limitations to what you are entitled to
ask, particularly about bracing even among friends. With respect, you
may ask , for example that you want to get a particular quality out of
your instrument and you might get a response like you migh try X, but
not the greater specifics.

This isn't Linux, this isn't open source guitarmaking. For many of us it a
business and although many of us share in a variety of capacities either
through teaching courses or giving lectures at GAL and ASIA, there are
reasonable limits to that discourse. Ervin isn't Microsoft controlling the
world, he's merely someone who has spent a lifetime exploring the
possibilities of what a guitar is and can be and he's earned the right to
ask to be paid for his efforts. If you're so devoted to building then show
your comittment and pony up for the course, then spend another five
years building 50 guitars coalescing what Ervin taught you.
LanceK39384.4588541667

Hey David, good to see you around. How ya been?

The fact that this thread is longer, and has more, ummm, emotion? than Al's thread, which actually IS useful, says a lot about how many forumites here think. Al's information is free and open to everyone, but Ervin's costs and is held closely by only a few. Ervin's Must be Da Bomb.

 Sad...

I probably would have said it a little bit different than David, I guess I already did

But I agree whole heartily with what David is saying.

No one should ever feel quilted in to sharing. Its something that one does based on choice.

I can only hope that one day I will have acquired the building chops that I may be able to
earn a living or supplement my current income with classes. That would be a dream come true!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

does not in my view negate the value of either.........

I realize this will come as a shock, Sir, but it's not always about you.

comon guys...

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com