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I checked the Zissner Bulls eye french polish discussion and it seems teh negative respones were that it contained the oil used. What is problem with that? Too much oil, too little, wrong oil? How good is the finish off the shelf?

Does anyone spray any finish over F/P. Why, what kind, does the result still look like F/P?

It worksd well as formulated. However I had rather have control on how much and what type oil is in my pad dependent on the stage Im at . For example, when I am building up the film I like a good bit of oil in the mix to aid the glide. But when I am glazing I don't like much oil at all because the cut of shellac has been reduced by half and the passes are straight passes, therfore I don't need as much oil to keep from possible sticking. Plus I like to use extra virgin olive oil or walnut oil. With the oil in the mix it has eliminated that option.

I do spray Zinnser's Seal Coat 100% wax free Sanding Sealer as my std seal coats on lacqure finishes. I also use this as my shellac mix for FP. It could be used as sprayed finish as well. but I don't think the film would be as dense sprayed as rubbed because you are not amalglumating the finish into one continious layer as you do when French polishing.

I would think that if you sprayed the Zinnser's FP you would have some issues with the oil getting traped. When you FP with it the rubbing motion force the solids down so the oil rises and is not traped.MichaelP38526.4662731482

I agree with Michael on this. At ASIA I took the Ron Fernandez FP hands on class and he had us FP a piece of wood under his supervision. In the initial stages of loading, we didn't use any oil at all. The key to loading is having the pad wet enough for the shellac to glide on, but not too wet so it builds too fast. We were loading with a 2lb cut, but we were adding alcohol to the pad, so it was probably somewhere between a 1 and 2lb cut. I had the hardest time keeping my pad wet enough, to it took forever for me to get my board loaded. After I figured out that the pad had to be wet enough, it went very quick. Good Luck!
Tracy

Tracy how hard can you pad during the build up if you are not lubercating with any oil. I use a pretty firm padding motion while building the body of the film. I do this to really work the solids into one continious amalglamation. I find that a real wet pad pulls off more shellac than it lays down. But I was taught by my grandfather and I do it the "Old School way". I am not saying it is the best way just how I was taught.MichaelP38526.5028472222

Michael,
I wasn't putting that much pressure on the pad once I got the pad loaded correctly. At first, I was pushing too hard and I didn't have enough on the pad, so I was taking off more than I was putting on. I watched Ron load a pad from the back of the fad, and he shot 2 whole eye dropper loads of shellac on the inside of the fad. FP is something that you have to see someone do because there are just too many factors that cause you to get inconsistant results.
Tracy

I have been French polishing since I was 15 but like I said I was taught the old world way. Very much like the Milburn tutorial, where you just use enough shellac in the pad to lay down added thickness with the motion and a bit of pressure. In the old world style the effort is in compressing the solids as tight a possible. There is a lot of debate on this next issue. But the idea is the denser the amalgamation of solids the harder the finish. It would seem to me that a rapid build up applied with less pressure would not achieve as dense of film. Keep in mind that I was taught by my grandfather and he was taught buy his so I maybe a bit bias here. I may have to give the rapid build-up method a try.

Thanks for the info Tracy. Who knows, maybe this old dog can learn a new trick.MichaelP38527.3825347222

Michael,
Another method like the rapid build up was tested by Robbie O'Brien, where he just brushed on 2 lb cut shellac with a foam brush, waited 3 weeks and buffed out. Came out beautiful and hard. I didn't see him do it, just the saw the test board, and it was beautiful!
Tracy

Ron has a new DVD out that is updated and quite good. I don't know what he's asking.He was taught FP by the old time spainish guitar makers...perhaps that's the difference in technique...one way for furniture another for instruments. Although I would prefer the hardest finish possible. I have been F.P. all my guitars for about three years now and still am trying to really get my technique perfected. Other variables like humidity, temperature, freshness of laquer, and even wood type make this process hard to pin down ( for me anyway). I could use a workshop on this...Did I read someone was giving a seminar somewhere?

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Dave,
That would be Marshall Brune in Chicago. He give an intensive FP class using a modern technique that will allow you to pore fill and FP in 2 days. $750 for 3 days. Contact Roger Labbe for details.
Tracy

Actually, contact Marshall (Richard Brune's son) for details! And it's 1 day if you really need to push it. There's been some scepticism expressed about quick FP in other venues (not here), but the nice thing is they have a lot of their old instruments around - you get to see what it looks like in a few decades. I'm sold on it.

Go to this thread for my review and Marshall's contact info: http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID= 1646&PN=2#17809

Thanks guys! I am going to give Marshall a Call.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Guys, can I ask a question?

I've french polished all my guitars. Brian Burns showed me the ropes as to how he does it. I use superblonde shellac at a 1 lb. cut. Between coats of shellac, I'll "level" the finish with mineral spirits. After several coats -- maybe 10 or 12 -- I use Micro Mesh to polish the finish out. (Not Brian's technique, this is mine) I level the finish with the coarsest grit (1500) then switch to progressively higher grits up to 6000, and then buff out the finish with the Micro Mesh liquid polish. This works pretty well, but it is time consuming.

It takes me a good two to three days of work to fp a complete guitar. Is this about right? It sure seems like a looooong time to me. :) I'd like to figure out a way to knock 8 to 12 hours off the total amount of time spent. My next guitar, I'm gonna try KTM-9.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

All that sanding to get a gloss sounds suspect. The guitar should be pretty glossy after spiriting off. As in good enough to ship unless you want a super gloss.

Marshall showed me a 3M buffer chucked into a drill press that they use to buff FP. I would imagine that that would be a heck of a lot faster than the micromesh route.

I'll do three or four guitars in 2-3 days.

OK, well obviously I'm doing something wrong. I've gotten a nice sheen on test pieces of material, but it seems like when it comes time to do a guitar -- especially the top, my fp tends to be rather streaky. Guess I oughta read through the Milburn guitars tutorial again.

Three or four guitars in two days sounds good to me :)

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

STREAKY? Strange term for french polish. Are you saying the film has areas with varing light reflective properties that apear to be in paralell planes? If this is the case it sounds to me that the film has not been glazed level. Do you get this on back and sides as well? Do the streaks run with the grain or aginst the grain? When a film is properly level and glazed it should apear to be one countinious gloss. Check closely to be sure you have a level film.Contaminatios trapped in the film can cause distortion in the film gloss, but is usally not in a consistant parralel plane.
I have seen what I think you are describing on in shellac applied with brisle brushes and only before spriting and glazing.

I have a question about the sequence when french polishing a guitar, Do you do one part at a time or try and work the whole body, if one part how do you manage the bindings ?

When boding I work in stages. I work the back, give it time to set(1/2 hr), work one side give it less time (15 min), work the top and give it 1/2 hr. then I work the other side. I will work the neck while waiting. You don't have to wait as long as I do, 5 min and the shellac should be dry to the touch. But I find I do better work at an easy pace. When spitzing off I work in the same process except I don't wait between stages because the DA gases off fast and the shellac hardens quicker. I do break during glazing but about half as long.

Thanks Michael

how do you cope with the edges, so for instnace when you do the back, how do you avoid getting shelac onto the side edges of the bindings ?

[QUOTE=MichaelP] STREAKY? Strange term for french polish. Are you saying the film has areas with varing light reflective properties that apear to be in paralell planes? If this is the case it sounds to me that the film has not been glazed level. Do you get this on back and sides as well?[/QUOTE]

My choice of words wasn't the best, I guess. Yeah, it almost looks like it's been laid down with a brush, but I use a pad. I use shellac at a 1 lb. cut, alternating ever other or every 2nd application or so with mineral spirits applied to the same pad. I'm using old T-shirt material for the outer surface of the pad. Think this might be the reason for the brushed-on look?

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

[QUOTE=Michael McBroom] [QUOTE=MichaelP] STREAKY? Strange term for french polish. Are you saying the film has areas with varing light reflective properties that apear to be in paralell planes? If this is the case it sounds to me that the film has not been glazed level. Do you get this on back and sides as well?[/QUOTE]

My choice of words wasn't the best, I guess. Yeah, it almost looks like it's been laid down with a brush, but I use a pad. I use shellac at a 1 lb. cut, alternating ever other or every 2nd application or so with mineral spirits applied to the same pad. I'm using old T-shirt material for the outer surface of the pad. Think this might be the reason for the brushed-on look?

Best,

Michael



[/QUOTE]

Old t-shirt material is a ideal outer pad. Whatever your outer pad, it needs to be changed out regularly.

I have never used mineral spirits for my solvent. I think denatured alcohol or pure grain alcohol is a better choice. I would be concerned about the gas-off rate of mineral spirits.

If you have lines like brush marks, my guess is that you need to re-work the glazing process. It is very important here to use a solvent that will gas-off quick yet still melt the solids. In this process the solvent melts the high ridges and flows them into a level film.

If the mineral sprits is not instantly melting the high ridges enough to level the film out, than this may be your problem. I can’t say that for sure because I have never tried mineral sprits as a French polish solvent.
MichaelP38532.3803356482

[QUOTE=RussellR] Thanks Michael

how do you cope with the edges, so for instnace when you do the back, how do you avoid getting shelac onto the side edges of the bindings ?

[/QUOTE]
Edges are always the problem area. More often than not they get under padded. So it is a good Idea to give the edges extra attention. To cut down on drips, I use a bit less shellac loaded in my pad while working the edges. This means I have to work them a bit more, but a drip is really not a big problem. If I get one I just wipe it with my pad and spritz that area level before the next session on that area.MichaelP38532.3886805556

Thanks Michael much appreciated

Does anyone have site for Ron Fernandez DVD?

Bob, I think Stew Mac sells the Fernandez DVD. At least they used to sell it, or was that the VHS?
Might want to check their web page.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars