Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi folks,

I know this subject has been brought up many times in the past i am realy
getting to a point where i have to come up with some viable alternatives
to mahogany.

With mahogany being upgraded to cites list 2 it realy becoming obvoise
that we need to find more viable neck woods.
even though we will still be able to get fsc plantation stock we are going
to see the quality fall dramaticaly over the next couple of years.
we are also going to lose cederella soon as well to the same fate as
mahogany.

I know that some electric builders are using rosewwods which i am full
agreement with but what about acoustics.
i do cut indian rosewood neck blanks for acoustics and when a/bed
against some denser brazilian mahogany the rosewood is lighter so why
not.
sonokling is reasonably priced aswell but not as stable as old growth
wood but it is lighter than old growth.

Another exotic wood i thought might be viable was cylon satin wood.
It is reasonbly priced very stable and quite light but at the same time
having increadable density.
The only problem i can see is A, is it strong enough and B, it tends to
check.
But sapele has the same problem and that is being used for necks.

we have the other mahoganys but african can be very poor and unstable
at times and seple can be brittle and prone to checking.

I have notices that some companys are using shedua these days this is a
wood i have no experience with so would have no idea.

macasar ebony makes wonderfull electric necks but would be too heavy
for an acoustic.

what about utile/sipo i have a board here that is stunning and rings like a
bell when wrapped.
its also very cheap would this wood be an option.

also i was wondering about all the plain koa and tas blackwood that is out
there. I think that it would be a prime target for necks?

There must some great woods out there that are perfect that are just
waiting to be tried its just finding them thats the trouble.

If anyone has any ideas on this i would love to hear you coments as i realy
do have to find an alternative becouse its getting harder and harder to
find mahogany here in the uk and we can no longer get it from the states

thanks for listening,
joel

There are a number of wood that make good necks.  Among Aussie woods, Queensland Maple and Alpine Ash are both good woods.  I also get Monterey Cypress from Australia that is also a very nice neck wood.

Walnut is a very good alternative for mahogany as it is stable, easy to work and looks good.

Spanish Cedar is being used by Martin and others as an alternative but it too will soon become threatened and sources are getting scarcer for it in good quality.  There are a number of Central and South American hardwoods that are in the same weight and density as Mahogany but have not been harvested commercially and are usually used as a secondary wood in US furniture plants where it is stained and finished to look like mahogany or walnut.

The problem is not a lack of alternative woods, it is about adjusting expectations as to the choice of materials.  FOr years classical guitar builders would build with nothing other than Brazilian Rosewood until that was out of reach pricewise or unavailable because of dwindling supply and CITES.  Now a EIR back and side for a classical is accepted and the norm.  The same will eventually be true of other woods instead of mahogany.

Cherry.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Joel-
You certainly laid out a good long list of alternatives- some for me to try- thanks!
I'll second Jim's suggestion about cherry- it makes a great neck- good-looking, and gets better with age, and doesn't look grubby after use if finished with oil (unlike maple). No pores, either.
I've made a couple of steel-string guitars with cherry necks and I like the results. It's also relatively cheap in N. America. I'd think it might be a bit heavy for classicals, but perhaps if one was building a classical body that was heavy anyway, it would be an interesting experiment.
Walnut is on my list to try on a classical some day- it looks good and isn't too dense.

Thanks again.

Cheers
John

I don't know if I look good, but I know I'm a little dense. At least you ought to ask my wife!

Straight, quartered, light and stable.  Right?  Laminated necks seem the way to go.  I realize that the aesthetics may not be there for some but as we get smaller dimensioned lumber from newer growth trees raised in sustainable forests, these may be our only alternatives.

_________________
Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

For steel string acoustics cherry is my favourite neck wood, and I am known for my love of mahogany, but cherry is my choice for necks now. As I'm in the UK I use our native Bird Cherry, Prunus avens, but it is virtually identical to P serotina in the USA.

Ash is another wood that has ben used with great success. I know that John Kinnaird here on the forum has used it, and if it's good enough for John then it's good enough for me or indeed anyone.

I think there are a lot of wood out there that will do the job, just that we have been stuck in a rut as mahogany was a cheap available timber that did the job well.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Is limba really that bad as far as stability is concerned?  How about canarywood?  If the issue is just cost/availability, then lamination does seem to be the way to go.

I'm glad to see people rally behind cherry.  It seems to be a natural alternative.  It has about the same density as a soft (e.g. bigleaf) maple but is stiffer.  Downside is the occasional resin pocket.

Keep an eye on whatever Samick and Cort are using these days, since they manage to crank out thousands upon thousands of guitars every year.  Some of the "mahogany" comes from Indonesia, but I don't know what the species is.

-Ben

Cherry. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised mahogany every became a universal
standard in the US when we have cherry right here.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I recently made a neck with Peruvian walnut that was stiff and lighter weight than our black walnut. It's a nice vintage chocolate brown, too.

_________________
Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

[QUOTE=Ken Franklin]I recently made a neck with Peruvian walnut that was stiff and lighter weight than our black walnut. It's a nice vintage chocolate brown, too.[/QUOTE]

Ken, sorry for the off-topic response, but I just looked at your site, and I really like your "Madeline" body style.  Just lovely.

-Ben

I love Cherry also.
I sometimes laminate it with curly soft maple (to make it easier to carve)
I think any stable wood with properties close to Cherry & Mahogany -which have vertually the same strength to weight ratios -will work.
Red cedar is available in lumber yards in huge pieces and would be a great classical & Flamenco neck.
With the right reinforcement maybe a steel neck also!
In the Northeast we have many hardwoods available-Oak-white & red,Beech,Ash,maples,Cherry,Birch,Walnut,even Elm!
I think we as guitarmakers should use our native woods more.
Just get some pieces of local woods -let them dry & try them on a guitar for yourself and record any changes in the woods -good or bad.


Mike Collins
www.collinsguitars.com

_________________
Mike Collins

Some 'old standards' are maple, birch and beech. I have also used ash and can second Colin's recommendation for it. These are all heavier than mahogany, so light tuners and a simple compression rod (for steel string guitars) is probably a good idea.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

At Healdsburg Ken Parker showed his very innovative archtop that had a
composite neck with a Doug Fir core. Yes, Fir.
I have built lots of furniture with old growth re-claimed Fir and I can say that
the tight ringed old stuff is pound for pound at least as stiff and stable as
HM.
One day I may give it a go as an experiment.
-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

At Healdsburg Ken Parker showed his very innovative archtop that had a
composite neck with a Doug Fir core. Yes, Fir.
I have built lots of furniture with old growth re-claimed Fir and I can say that
the tight ringed old stuff is pound for pound at least as stiff and stable as
HM.
One day I may give it a go as an experiment.
At my recent stop at the wood store the 12/4 HM was gone with no re-order
in sight. Short term alternatives are Khaya ("African Mahogany") and Sapele.

-C

_________________
Freeborn Guitars
and home of BeauGuard©

[QUOTE=Chas Freeborn]At Healdsburg Ken Parker showed his very innovative archtop that had a

composite neck with a Doug Fir core. Yes, Fir.

I have built lots of furniture with old growth re-claimed Fir and I can say that

the tight ringed old stuff is pound for pound at least as stiff and stable as

HM.

One day I may give it a go as an experiment.

-C[/QUOTE]

Check the thread on damping.  I mention my fir-necked electrics there.  There's no reason whatsoever not to give it a go.

-Ben

Butternut (juglans cinerea)... I am just completing a guitar that I used it for
and it looks great. It was quartersawn and when I compared the neck blank
to an equal sized mahogany neck blank, the butternut was lighter; and to
my untrained eye, it looks very similar to mahogany once carved (save the
color of course). Also, the builder I'm working with (30+ years experience)
has used it frequently for many years and believes it to be an equally as
good neck wood.

Once I figure out how to post pictures, I'll put some up of the neck.

Jamie

[QUOTE=Jamie M]
Once I figure out how to post pictures, I'll put some up of the neck.
[/QUOTE]

Just click the icon on the far right over the posting dialogue box (it has a tree with an arrow on it), and another dialogue box appears that lets you browse your computer to upload a picture.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin

I used oak once.........

yeuch!!!

once the chisel caught under the grain it lifted out in BIG splinters.

I'll not be using it again in a hurry!!

I've used walnut, maple, and EIR in lams......

_________________
My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

I just bought a pallet load of west coast cherry to be used for neck blanks. As soon as my current supply of mahogany runs out I will start using the cherry.... maybe before that. I have also bought a pallet load of northern ash to be used for necks.

I have also bought myself a CNC router. I havent had time to play with it much, but my plans are to crank out rough carved cherry necks and ash necks as time permits. Perhaps by the next swap meet I'll have enough to let a few of them go. At this point I dont know if the CNC is the way to go or if a duplicator would be better.

Either way, I am making the move away from mahogany for necks.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

Thanks for the answers folks.

I also think that oak would be naty its horably open graind and has a
tendancy to twist (i am thinking english oak here)

With lamanting though we can use wood that we would not normaly use
as long as we have a nice quarter sawn fillet of a good stable wood such
as an ebony or rosewood or even snakewood (mmm!).

chery is a wood that i have had good reports of and being in the uk its
one of our native woods so thats a one wood i will be offering in the
future.
All though for some reason its agot a reputation as a bit of a boring wood

Oh well thanks again for the comments folks any ideas let me know,
Joel.

[QUOTE=martinedwards] I used oak once.........

yeuch!!!

once the chisel caught under the grain it lifted out in BIG splinters.

I'll not be using it again in a hurry!!

I've used walnut, maple, and EIR in lams......[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the warning on oak. I was giving it a thought.

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

For those of you that like HM, the root stock that was taken to Figi about 80 years ago is coming on line. The mill is set up and some is being shipped. I received a small bundle to use and I find no difference in quality. NO CITES needed. Grading has been a problem, due to lack of knowledge, but a US grading master has been hired and is on his way.

DEan

_________________
Dean

 I think wood choice comes down to traditions sometimes rather than it's qualities. I was talking to a friend today about why the furniture made in Williamsburg was made with Mahogany when you had so many great native woods. One reason they only had hand tools and Mahogany was easy to work. Today with modern tools we can use much harder to work woods. Cherry and Maple can be tough to work with hand tools. I think Walnut would work well if you had the right piece. Butternut is softer but I think it would be difficult to get suitable wood. New England has some nice butternut trees. I resawed a back set for practice and it looks nice I don't know how good it would be for this? I agree that we need to think of alternatives and it would be great if we could use native woods as much as possible. I have heard good things about Canary wood but it is imported and expensive.

_________________
Mistakes are mandatory-learning from them is optional. http://www.opensourceluthiersupply.com

My local supplier had a load of figi plantation mahogany recently an it
was awfull.
wide graind unstable course grained prone to checking you name it it was
foul stuff i for one will not be using it.
but i suppose its like brazilian and depends on soil content etc and i am
sure there will be some nice stuff coming through.
The indonision plantation stuff can be ok but i think we will all agree that
plantation wood dont quite cut the mustard like good old old growth
forest wood.

As for the use of butternut i like the idea but never having worked with it
i would no know. i would like to try it.
what about oregon myrtle its simalar to maple yes so that should be an
option.

Thanks for the input you have all given me lots of options i just need to
build another 15 guitars to test them all.

Joel.

Another vote here for laminated necks, and then for cherry and walnut.   I've used cherry as a substitute for maple on electric necks, and it's just beautiful.   It's also stable, machines well, and takes finish beautifully.