Official Luthiers Forum!

Firstly a big Hi from down under and thanks to all for this forum (Oh no!!! another bloody ozzie)
Actually I'm a Kiwi but have been living here over twenty years and am a Piano Tuner/Tech of 35 years.
   This is my first build so you know that feeling!!
   I'm inlaying a M.O.P. rose into an ebony headstock but for the life of me can't come up with a good green for leaves and stems. I've dyed rock maple but can't get it to penetrate deep enough . In warm water on a stove overnight with a touch of ammonia.Doesn't go deep enough to sand flush and retain colour. Corian only seems to do a yuk olive and abalone is way to bright in contrast to M.O.P.   What do you guys use??
   I note now that there are other Craig's on this forum.Even onother Craig L . Maybe i should change my user name. Any Suggestions. I Know my wife has got some other names for me but they may not be suitable . PLEASE HELP WITH MY INLAY !!!! It's driving me crazy..er

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hi Craig,

And a big howdy to you! Hope you enjoy hanging around this place. You might consider some reconstituted stone; it comes in a rainbow of colors. Look up www.masecraftsupply.com
They should have something to fit the bill.

We have a family friend who just graduated from the University of Otago in Dunedin. Lovely home you Kiwis have!

SteveSteve Kinnaird38535.9355787037

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Connemara Marble (from Ireland) is a nice shade of olive/green, and not so dang hard as some other green stones.

Other semi-precious stones or gemstones that are green will always be available in lower grades that are perfect for carving but too opaque to make into quality gems.

Low grade Emerald (the stuff that looks like avocado dip), or even some cabbing grade Emerald would do. (Look up "emerald rough" on Ebay) You could also look for "nephrite jade", "adventurine rough" or "peridot rough", though most lower grade peridot is a bit toward yellow/green.

That's the best things I can think of in green, off the top of my head. I don't think you'll find "tsavorite" cheap, even in lower grades, but it is the color of good emeralds.

OK, a quick Google search provided these New Zealand "greenstone" varities as well: Green stones from New Zealand

I can tell you that nephrite jade is legendary for its toughness, and might be the very best choice for skinny pieces like stems on roses. Jade has an interlocked crystalline structure - it won't fall apart!

Hope this helps!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Hi Craig! Guess I have an inlay alter ego.

When I need to use green I use either Gaspeit recon stone
It's a pure green green, or sometimes I'll use corians, or green abalone for effect. I know green abalone isn't green, but leaves even when they are green often have varying shades, and ripples, sothey aren't always green.
You can check out my website galleries to see examples of everything I just mentioned. I specialize in inlay. It's all I do luthiery related. The land gallery has lots of Good luck,

Craig Lavin
www.handcraftinlay.com

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www.handcraftinlay.com

Wow!!! Two replies in a matter of minutes. Thankyou muchly
Steve, I'm actually Dunedin born and bred. Almost the bottom of the world, and completed my piano tuning apprenticeship there. (No two headed jokes,O.K.) Sheep jokes ,,,, I can handle.(I certainly get enough of them)
   Michael, I see no mention on the Australian made water dye of it being aniline.
I've got some pen blanks ordered but don't hold much hope as in the catalogue they appear a mottled dark green (green opal)
   By the way , my build is going really well, but very slow. It's Mah. , "A frame " bracing,with Florentine. I've finished the body and I'm beside myself Gee, those bindings and purflings are a breeze aren't they . Easier still when you do a florentine with side purfling. When it comes to this green thing, please bear in mind that I'm in the land of OZ and materials can be a bit difficult to obtain, at least where I come from ( in the "bush")
   TIA      Baa aaaaaaaa Baaaaaa

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Hi Craig,

GOURMET GUITARS definitely has some footage about the traditional
Spanish ways to achieve certain colors. Either Jose Romanillos or Bernd
Martin. I have to browse some 40 hours of footage in our archives. Please
be patient - sometime today...

Holger

All this help is terrific!   I have the Masecraft catalogue on it's way thanks Steve. How tough is this recon to finish? I tryed some N.Z. Greenstone Dennis as naturally being a kiwi I had some floating around. a jackhammer job me thinks
    So I am left still not being able to get into the fretboard thing. I'm pacing up and down the workshop,,,,,,,,tapping my foot,,,,,, pace again,,,,,
     Now I thought I'd better change my user name as there are one too many Craig L's around here. I don't seem to be able to do that without reregistering,,and if I do , that means there will be two of me hanging around here, which is O.K. as I am a bit psycho.........And so am I!!! Will come back as "KiwiCraig" . that'll be fine by the both of us.
   Before I do , could someone please advise if re registering is necessary.
    pacing......waiting for more replies......pacing...

        "KiwiCraig"


       

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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hello and welcome kiwicraig

where in the bush are you? i was a transplanted yank in aus for almost 28 yrs( a couple of years each in sydney and sa, the rest in the canberra district). i must say i did give a few good laughs at the sheep jokes that were laid on the kiwis, particularly around melbourne cup time.

regretably only had the pleasure of visiting the land of the long white cloud once, for work. spent a week in queenstown and the only thing i got to see was the view of the remarkables down one arm of lake wakitipu(sp) from my hotel room each morning. rather frustrating, but at least the speights was good in the pub come evening.

have you been following the lions tour? abs handed out a bit of a drubbing in both tests so far. one wag commentator opined that if the queen got wind of it she might undub sir clive. i'm looking forward to the tri-nations -- should be very competitative this year.

sorry i can't give you any new insights into your inlay dilemma; it definitrely isn't one of my stronger skills.crazymanmichael38536.5307523148

Kiwi, I've never used the recon stone. So, no firsthand experience w/ the material, but I hear it ain't too bad. What say, CraigL #1?

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Great to hear from you Crazy Man. I now know where the crazy part comes from after your 28 years.
See , I'm back , under a new user name to avoid confusion. So I make it that there are now 5 Craigs here now which is still a bit confusing, especially because I'm two of them.
You seem to Know your stuff when it comes to our part of the world Michael , why did they kick you out?.I've got you marked as a bit of a wag yourself.I used to play Queenstown in a rock band many years ago where more than plenty of speights hit the spot.
    I now live on the Great Dividing Range in N.S.W.. Altitude around 4000ft. About 2 hours from Tamworth if you've heard of it.Our home was on old school. there's nobody here but us and a few "roos" and also our chooks,sheep,dogs,cats,peacocks,cattle etc.
   There is a small river running through our land.Boy and Girl,13&10. Our situation ain't that bad!
My wife had both legs amputated a couple of years ago, which stopped my piano work but allows me time in my ,within the house, workshop.Actually my old Piano Workshop,where I'm forfilling my ambition a little earlier than expected
Don't mention the All Blacks mate ,,, the Aussies are blowing them kisses every time they perform the haka.It's wee bit savage don't you think?
Hey, It's so great to hear from you guys, even just to say hello. So good being in such good company . I can now show my wife that I'm not the only one obsessed with guitar. Please keep em comin!
   
        Clever Craig

Reconstituted stone is dead easy to shape and finish. It's basically the native stone ground up and cast in a plastic, acrylic I think. It's pretty soft and takes a nice polish. There is a reconstituted jade that would work well for leaves IMO.

     I had some grean paua that I had used for leaves on a vine inlay once. I can't remember where I got it. Clavin's work is hard to beat and I met and chatted a bit at the ASIA Symposium.
He knows his inlay to say the least. That is part of the fun , the hunting nad fishing for info and supplies.
Good luck
john hall

Hi Craig

I chaged your original User ID CraigL to KiwiCraig. The only thing you will need to do is log on using KiwiCraig as your userid (instead of the old CraigL) when you get into the system as a member.

post a message if you have a problem.

:-)

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I haven't used recon stone, but I've sure thought about it. A local knife supply here -- www.texasknife.com -- has all sorts to choose from.

I have successfully dyed curly maple purfling strips using Rit brand fabric dye -- I believe the color is called "dark green". I heated the strips in a pot of water with maybe 1/4 of the dye package at 180F for a couple hours, let it cool, then heat it again at 180F for a couple hours, then let it steep in the dye overnight.

I tried once to use a pressure cooker to dye some of the purfling strips, using royal blue. The higher temps caused by the increased pressure broke down the blue color, though, and I wound up with a greenish-brown mess.

So, when I did the green, I did not even bring the pot to a boil.

Anyway, this worked pretty well. After scraping down the binding with the green purfling sandwitched between layers of undyed wood, it remained a medium green color -- which was exactly what I was hoping for.

Best,

Michael

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Live to Play, Play to Live

Another option is stabilized wood. The dying is part of the stabilizing process, and these people probably have the color you want on hand in wood. You can also have your own wood dyed and stabilized for about $16.50/lb.

Wood Stabilizing Specialist International - WSSI

I've used a lot of their stabilized wood over the years and they are excellent to deal with.

Jerry Hossom38536.6910416667

Gday Kiwi Craig,

Always good to see more people from oz (or even NZ ) 'round here.

So you're in the mountains about two hours from Tamworth? That'd put you somewhere near Armidale? I'm down in Sydney, tho I keep telling the wife we need to move up that way 'cause it's a nice part of the country, she keeps telling me our jobs are in the city - nobody's hiring research chemists or database consultants up there.

I can't really help you with the green inlay problem, maybe you could give Trend Timbers a call. They've got tons of inlay veneers and stuff, they might have some ideas. Also Carba-tec had a bunch of pen blanks when I was there last, I seem to remember green ones - might be worth a shot.

   I've now seen your inlay work Craig L (the original).and I'm impressed!    Sorry about our name mix up . I think we finally have that cleared up.I have a recon catalogue ordered from Masecraft. I've also checked out Stabilized wood (link on Jerry's post).I think everyone should give it a look,very interesting and lots of possibilities.
   Your a bundle of knowledge Jerry,appreciated.
I have some paua here John, but I think it's way too colourfull in contrast to my M.O.P. rose (a 12 piece,,,phew ). Paua (par-wah) is also another good thing to come out of N.Z..My Dad used to gather them and had many a meal of them. Not actually an abalone I'm told but looks like them exept for their black foot which is sraped off and beaten before cooking. Wish I had hung on to all the shells! Most Kiwi's used them as ashtrays!
   Your close to my whereabouts PaulB . I was Pianotuner/Tech for University of New England in Armidale for too many years . I actually live 45 Klm from a little place called Walcha ( our closest town)
   I think I've Narrowed down my inlay green down to recon or stabilized wood . I've "had it" with the dying thing Just have to recut all thoselittle bits again in a better medium . Pianos have taught me patients. (everything you do is times 88),except tuning... over two hundred strings! Incidently they have a pull of around twenty tones and six tones downbearing on the bridges onto a 3/8" crowned spruce soundboard
I've also done a fair amount of string making and scale design if anyone needs info.
Great to hear from you all!! Helps with my insecurity problem

KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Can you still get Tim-Tams in oz?
If not, that would be worth the occasional trip back home.   

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Hi Kiwi Craig

If your using the Gaspeit recon make sure to use it a little thicker than shell, and inlay it deep. It's extremely fragile. It normally breaks during cutting, and I have seen situations recently where it has cracked after it's been inlaid for just over a half year. I was told by many other inlayers "don't worry- all inlays crack over time" but for me it's just plain unacceptible.

Good luck.
Craig Lavin

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www.handcraftinlay.com

[QUOTE=Steve Kinnaird] Can you still get Tim-Tams in oz?
If not, that would be worth the occasional trip back home.    [/QUOTE]

mmmm, Tim-Tams.

If they stopped selling those here there'd be trouble!

Walcha? that figures. I thought you'd be either north of Tamworth towards Armidale or east and that'd mean Walcha. I got lost up your way once - can you tell? Actually, I've come to believe getting lost on holidays is the best way to see the country, that way everything is unexpected. Regretably, my wife is a vehement opponent of this way of looking at things.

A big G'day to you Steve and Craig!

   Notice how the Kiwis spell ton as "tones".(Way,way too many tunings)

Hey Steve, the kids pounce on Tim Tams. You stand no chance at all really,,,,,,,that , or risk serious injury! End up looking exactly like this

Wow! you have put me right off recon Craig. I couldn't face it cracking in the future. I even used C.A. and ebony powder to fit up my rose ,as I heard how epoxy (being a liquid) rises proud of the surface after a number of years. Also has me thinking about those who use it as a pore filler for that matter.
   
   Thank you very very much for giving me the words of wisdom on recon . Probably saved me a lot of frustration. I'll be keen to see this Stabilized wood now. It seems to be wood impregnated with some sort of coloured(Kiwi spelling) resin. No warping. shrinking,colour(see above) fast and no grain raising. Sounds really good! Have you used it Craig ?,or anyone else for that matter. C'mon,,, don't be sheepish (couldn't resist that).

     Baaaaa Bye,,,,,,KiwiCraig

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CRAIG LAWRENCE of AUSTRALIA
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Kiwi Craig

Great to have ya around. I thought I would post a pic of a rose inlay I did a few weeks ago. I know you are leaning towards using wood and mine was shell but I thought I would post it for interest sake. I like the shell because as Craig (clavin, the local expert) said you can get some really cool patters that look great for the leaves and other parts of the stem. The stem on this rose if Paua with a few small pieces of Green Rippled . I'm no inlay expert and this inlay has its flaws, but it still looks nice. So for what its worth...



Hey did someone mention Tim-Tams?? A friend of mine brought some back here to Canada. I wish we could get some of those up here. They were great!

Josh

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Josh House

Canadian Luthier Supply
http://www.canadianluthiersupply.com
https://www.facebook.com/canadianluthiersupply?ref=hl
House Guitars - Custom Built Acoustic Instruments.
http://www.houseguitars.com

Hi Craig.

I have only had this problem once so far with the gaspeit recon. I have used it many times, as well as other inlayers have. Grit Laskin uses it often, he's in the top two in the world. I wouldn't turn off it so fast, just make sure you use smaller thicker pieces, if they are a seperate area from somethign else, and maybe try to inlay with the grain. I was shocked to see that happen in the one guitar that it did. It almost put me off it permanantly. I may just back it now before using it again. It really is the only true green out there in my opinion (in that leaf shade/color.

That said there are dozens of types of recon stones, and all work differently. You have to try them out seperately for each one.

Best Craig L

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www.handcraftinlay.com