Official Luthiers Forum!

I think we have discussed this before but I'm too lazy to search the archives . If I remember correctly, numerous shops do cook their soundboards. One in particular was Colling's guitars in Austin. I know they make excellent guitars so there may be something to it. It seems like some folks here had planned to do some trials but I don't remember seeing any update posts.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

I soak mine in a marinade of Jack Daniels. Then everything I play sounds good.... To me.

That's Brian Burns with the chefs hat on over at the other forum. His data is pretty interesting, though it took me a while before I found out what "Q" was - basically how long the tap tone rings for, which is said to increase if you bake.

I've baked a few tops, and my results (as unscientific as they are) seem to support Brian's data. The reason I baked was 'cause I got some king billy pine tops from ebay the postal people must have left the package out in the sun too long because there was some sticky spots on the tops where pitch had oozed out - wasn't in the photos. So I baked to try and drive off the volatile component of the pitch. It worked, the pitch had cystalised and wasn't sticky anymore. Another thing I noticed was that the tap tone rang like a bell after baking, and the tops were much stiffer across the grain. This wasn't a difference of a few percent, there was a huge difference. The king billy pine now feels much more like spruce.

I've also baked a few spruce tops but didn't notice much of a difference compared to the king billy. Not saying it's not there, I was only using my hands and eyes to measure and that's not going to pick up a few percent change.

Michael,

3 different issues here: "Kermodie" marketing, cooking tops, and the "Q" factor.

Baked Spruce, au jus: Guilty as charged. Now, bear in mind, I'm a newbie, and still have no clue as to what the overall outcome really is. But I did it, and the difference in the livliness and stiffness of the wood was remarkable. It was pointed out to me by a very knowledgable fellow on the luthierforum, that a lot of the effect that I had experienced was simply due to drying the wood to nearly 0%MC. He said that when the wood returned to equilibrium, the effect would be much less noticeable. And though there are a number of people claiming that there are permanent changes to the resins in the wood (simulating natural aging), I certainly don't have the experience to know. By the way, I heard Taylor guitars is one of the big factories that cooks all tops.   

"Q": I have no clue as to what Brian Burns "Q" factor really means, other than it appears to be his sincere attempt to try to quantify some qualities of soundboards, to be able to select a soundboard in the raw state and be able to predict its potential. I suspect all luthiers try to learn to select prime soundboards by tapping and flexing. Brian burns is trying to come up with a method to scientifically measure the sustain and stiffness, and arrive at a number. On the other hand, though a flabby floppy top will probably not make a great instrument, even when braced by a knowledgable pro, who says that the stiffest wood makes the best top? What is "best"? Seems like "Q" measures stiffness and sustain, so for example, White Spruce will probably always have a higher "Q" than Western Red Cedar. But does that mean that Redwood, or Western Red Cedar, or Engleman cannot make the "best" instrument you ever played? Perhaps Brian Burns will develop a "Q" for each species, but will even that accurately predict the "best" sounding soundboard? I'm really just asking questions - I don't know. But, it would be nice to be able to buy a soundboard on some factor other than species, grain lines per inch, grain consistancy, and color (which may actually be very poor ways to try to quantify the potential of a top.)

"Kermodie" spruce marketing: "Kermodie" (which evidently identifies a number of spruce hybrids, always containing Sitka, and one or more of the following: White, Engleman), is not the greatest soundboard material this side of Alpha Centauri. The actual line in the sand is on Jupiter's moon Ganymede. So, there is a possibility that somewhere in distant space, a better soundboard material exists.

You know, I think that a lot of builders would rather read that William Cumpiano tried a Kermodie soundboard, and said the guitar was "among his best." That's the marketing line I would use, but that's me. So, in spite of the hyper-hype, over-the-top marketing, the material is probably worth considering.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

haha.. I just realized that I have been banned from the
www.luthierforum.com

Must have been because I spoke out about his marketing crap...

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

I'm sure Al will chime in, but it's pretty good science. 'Q' is a 'quality factor', but a mathematically defined one fairly common (apparently) in engineering applications. Boils down to the Peak frequency divided by the difference between higher and lower frequencies. A measure of how things resonate. Brian's been sharing his data on several boards, including a left-brain lutherie list, not just on those run by people with strange ideas about marketing.

Taylor and Collins (I think) bake their tops, I believe Mario does/has, since numbers indicate you get a more dimensionally stable top (taking it down to bone-dry, letting it re-acclimate, voila, pre-shrunk top). Plenty of reason to go for it, I'd say. I'll be trying it for sure.Mattia Valente38538.1426273148

[QUOTE=Mattia Valente] I'm sure Al will chime in, but it's pretty good science. 'Q' is a 'quality factor', but a mathematically defined one fairly common (apparently) in engineering applications. Boils down to the Peak frequency divided by the difference between higher and lower frequencies. A measure of how things resonate. Brian's been sharing his data on several boards, including a left-brain lutherie list, not just on those run by people with strange ideas about marketing.

Taylor and Collins (I think) bake their tops, I believe Mario does/has, since numbers indicate you get a more dimensionally stable top (taking it down to bone-dry, letting it re-acclimate, voila, pre-shrunk top). Plenty of reason to go for it, I'd say. I'll be trying it for sure.[/QUOTE]


That is an accurate definition but one that relates more closely to guitars is the "ratio of stored energy to dissipated energy X/r" Where r is normally energy losses due to the heat of internal friction. If a "Q" of infinity were possible the objects vibration would never cease nor would the volume diminish, due to no internal losses. High Q materials such as Quartz used in watches
have Q values in the thousands, the advantage is that to keep them vibrating it is only necessary to replace the "r" loss. The higher the "Q" the longer the battery lasts. So super high "Q" tops would have a very long sustain which IMHO would not be good as you would be playing over what you had already played. In the case of my playing the sooner it goes away the better. The other problem is that high Q materials have a very strong self resonance so balance would be out of the question. This is where Mattia's definition is telling the higher the Q the smaller the bandwidth. So low Q for balance "broadbanding", high Q for sustain. So IMHO the only value of knowing the "Q" is for keeping records of the material consistancy so just in case we make the perfect guitar we will have some idea what we put into it.

Torres also "cooked" his tops or at least there is evidence to that. The Spanish luthiers would cooked them on the roofs of there shops.

Steve Brown

The topic was " “cooking” your wood in the oven" .   I just took a quick browse through it and it's worth the read.

Thebutton

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I'm actually gearing to try this on my next few guitars to see what results I get, like many who have done this I'll have to convince my wife that's it's not some new *fad* diet first and that I won't set her oven on fire or anything

I've heard from enough builders and read the whole thread on the leftbrain list and decided it's time to give it a whirl and see what I come up with.

-Paul-

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Thanks for the link John. Upon re-reading the old thread, it makes me wonder. Where is Mario hiding? Aren't we worth abusing anymore.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

I cook all my tops (including King Billy ) and like the results. It was Taylor that convinced me to try it and I like the results. We are all trying to get tops that sound "played in" and this appears to help in that effect in addition to helping to stabilize.

I use my reject Cedar tops for salmon. --db

Boy John...
You get banned from a lot of places...
Sounds like me..

I know.. haha what's the deal. Guess I'm just an arse!

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John

I suspect it is because you are very knowledgable and happy to express an honest opinion.

Some people find this a problem, if they are not open to new opinions.

I, for one, find your opinions informative and well reasoned, and appreciatte your open and honest attitude.

Keep it up

Well I'm normally happy to express whatever the heck is on my mind...
Gets me in trouble a lot. If I'm thinking it I don't hold back. I actually like
that about myself but not everyone does! And that's cool.

Thanks for the nice words.... I surely don't deserve them, but thanks.

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John,

I think typically it is those who feel they should be able to express themselves without limits, who have problems with others who want to do the same. In other words, they can dish it out, but they can't take it!

I only know you from your guitar building dvds, but you sure seem like a nice guy who likes helping others. You have helped me a ton that's for sure! So, keep up the good work, and keep speaking your mind!

Do you ever bake your tops? Did Dana when you worked there?

JeffJeff Doty38541.5642361111