Official Luthiers Forum!

Professional guitar makers unite.  For a young luthier ready to do this full time, what advice would you give him to start up?  Personal experience, price ranges, how to sell 'em and what they want, where to spend the money first etc. Spread the goodness that is experience.

Have you built a guitar yet Matty?
This would be good info to have to better answer your questions.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

My best advice is to build good jigs and buy good tools before you get too busy to build them. Take the time necessary to build them right and make them durable.

If you have something that you have to baby along, finesse, or otherwise spend a lot of time getting right, then do whatever is necessary to repair/replace that tool or jig.

buy quality materials, woods, purflings, fret wire, tuners, rosette materials. Cheap materials will cost you more money than they are worth in the long run. Learn to buy wisely to save money.

My band saw, thickness sander and table belt sander are the 3 tools I use most. I would recommend buying the best you can afford. Get yourself a couple of quality hand sanders and buy loads of sandpaper of varying grits. I Use a LOT of the self stick rolls of sandpaper.

Once you get a few guitars under your belt, get them into the hands of local musicians and get honest candid critiques from them. Dont be offended by their critiques either. My best sales have come from word of mouth referrals from bluegrass players I met at bluegrass festivals.

do it because you love making guitars, not because you want to get rich.

 

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Reguards,

Ken H

Go study with someone who has been in the business for some time. That I think will give you the best chance at success as you will learn considerably more than you could ever on your own. If I were to consider doing this for a living (first I think I'd have to sell my house and send my kids to work to even think about keeping the same level of income) I'd do anything I could to go and work with a seasoned vet, even at next to none to no income because the experience would be priceless.

Starting out on your own with little to no experience will make it a very hard road. The romantic allure of being a guitar maker won't put food in your belly or a roof over your head.

Anyway, this all assumes that you have little to no experience. If you have experience in guitar making well really I'd probably suggest the same as any level of experience and knowledge you can glean from those in the know (those who are making a successful living from guitar building) is really priceless. Heck even taking a couple month course from some of the luthier's school would be a great start.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Yes, that's a good idea to have a background to the question.  Guitar making school, a few years at a small production shop, a few years on my own.  Can build an instrument 'worthy' of being sold. Let's keep this particular topic more toward the business aspect of setting up and selling and not so much the building. 

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm sure business models abound. What were you able to see in the shop
you worked for?

   If you have to ask how to sell your product you are asking a most difficult question. There is a big difference between being a good luthier and being a good business person.
    Most of us got into this over a period of time. What started out as a hobby became a profitable hobby , then a business. My wife and I left it take its course and we went with it.
   Now that we are at this a while and became successful we are still awed at the recognition we receive and how many people come to visit us and from how far they come.
   Not all builders make good repair people nor do good repair people always make good builders. I don't know your skill level or customer base. That is all part of deciding what your are capable of and what you can expect of your business.
   I suggest you take a good class and get as much training as possible and then talk to a good tax accountant and lawyer. They can help save you from yourself. You don't know what you don't know and this can be dangerous when you want to start up a business.
john hall
blues creek guitars
     

There is a lot of wisdom in what John just said.  I own an electrical contracting business.  When I first started up on my own, I had 21 years experience working for other companies, and 10 of those years were intimately involved in the internal company business of two different companies.  I was very involved in estimating, billing, collecting, and sales as well as I knew exactly what it took to actually make a profit.  A lot of first time start up businesses have no idea what profit is.  They think that if they sell something for a few dollars over what the material and labor cost, that is profit.  No, that is overhead.  The profit is what is left after everything including the IRS has been paid.  Typically it is a very small amount.

Anyways, I thought I had all the knowledge I needed to make a run at it on my own.  I got a lawyer to get me incorporated and an accountant to help me with my books and taxes.  Even with all of that, I made some major mistakes with the tax people the first year and it took me 4 years to get it straightened out.  John is very correct when he says "you don't know what you don't know".  I learned that the hard way.   The tax man doesn't care one lick if this is your first try at a business and it was an honest mistake.  They treat you the same as Enron if they think you are short changing them.  There are no honest mistakes as far as the tax man (especially in NY!) is concerned.  Take some business classes at your local college and find a GOOD tax accountant and lawyer.  Your personal tax guy might be good with your personal taxes, but he may not know anything about business taxes.  (that was my problem)  Find a tax and business lawyer, spend a few dollars, pepper him with questions and listen to the answers.  I have learned over they years that  electrical work is only part of running my business.  After reading posts from guys like John Hall and Rick Turner, the guitar building business doesn't seem to be all that different.  It is just a different product.

Starting up a business is hard work and with the tax laws, is riddled with mine fields.  Talk to people who have done it successfully, and take notes on what they tell you.  It is a very rewarding feeling knowing that you build a business, and that your only boss is you (well, except for those pesky customers!)

I'm a self employed canoe builder for 15 years.  I second the advice given.  No matter how good your work is, the product is only a fraction of your actual work.  Running the business is the work, and it can be dang frustrating to to have to deal with all the administration!

Before you start out on your own, learn as much about running a business as you can: Accounting, tax law, marketing, sales, and customer relations.  The whole thing.  If you can't do it quickly, do it slowly, but keep the guitar building commitment in proportion to your business skills.

One person, working alone, can only do so much work.  Your income is linearly related to your productive hours. Accounting, phone calls, shopping, errands, customers dropping in, cleaning up, tooling up-none of it actually EARNS you income in the present.  Its all time invested to earn you future income.  You have to consider that if you put in an 8 hour day, maybe 5-6 will be productive.  Do your own math, you have to earn your days wages in that 5-6 hours.

The start up period for your business will be the most expensive.  That is when you need to invest in tooling up, product development, and marketing.  It takes a long time to establish your name, and its an expensive investment.  Handling growth will also be extremely challenging, and probably your most hazardous time.  You need to know what sort of business model you want to work with.

And, of course,  you want some time for yourself and your family.

Good luck!

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

One of the hardest parts to this equation is thinking you are charging too much. ALso if you don't take your deductions you won't get in trouble . More businesses fail not because the product is bad but the business end is more important that the production end.
   You can figure 30% off the top for taxes. Overhead on average is 8% so now 40% off the top of the profit is gone. You think you made a $1.00 but you only made $.60 and out of that you have to replace what you used so now that .60 is about .20
   so you can see , this isn't just hanging out a shingle and going to the bank. Also expect to work 16 hrs a day for the first couple of years. It take time , work , and patience. You also have to have good people skills . You never want to loose money but you cannot afford to loose a customer.
   Educate yourself . Education costs money. You either pay the teacher , or your going to learn by paying for the mistake.
john Hall
this advice is worth what you paid for it. How valuable you make it is up to you

Matty go find another hobbie, I don't care how much money you have ! If you can't build a good guitar nobody cares!
Lance

Matty, I'm not a professional luthier by an stretch of the imagination and this is my first post so please ignore these comments if you choose.  I started building guitars in the mid 70's.  I sold the first few and decided that I really didn't have the skill or experience to be selling guitars to the public.  Since then, I've practiced, learned, tried and failed, tried again and still have not sold anything I've made.  Just don't feel right about it.  I have so much to learn and the bar is being raised higher and higher by the great builders who populate this forum.  So, I continue to build, learn by mistakes and by the examples of folks on this forum and thank God I don't do this for a living.

I agree with the advice so far, get the best tools you can possibly afford, cheap stuff usually produces cheap stuff.  Hold yourself to a high standard and don't expect to be perfect, the best folks here make mistakes from time to time.  Hang around people who know what they are doing, at least as much as they'll let you.  Be patient, do what you know is the best and see where it takes you.

I'm beginning to have a collection of "experiments" which I'll never sell but guitars I take pleasure in having built, and that's enough for me.

I feel lucky to be around these pros and hope to learn as much as I can.  That's probably the best any of us can do.

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Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

Hi Bruce, Welcome to the OLF!

Hey, a wise man once told me a good Luthier is one who can cover his mistakes.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

"Let's keep this particular topic more toward the business aspect of setting up and selling and not so much the building."

Start/keep building them, if they are worthy, the buyers will come.

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Lance thanks, I agree that the best builders are not those who make no mistakes, they just know how to deal with them.  None of us are perfect.  I think the trick is to learn to minimize them and then deal with the ones that come up in the best way possible.

There's never been a time when we've had to deal with woods that represent such value and rarity.  It just makes sense to be as careful as possible, if you don't think you are ready for these kinds of projects and these rare woods, try something easier until you get that confidence you need to do a good job.  I had a set of great old Brazilian that I was itching to use but held off because I just didn't feel right about building with it.  I finally used it and I'm glad I waited, it's what I had in mind for the wood and it came out well.

Again, thoughts from an amateur, listen to the pros.

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Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."

Start with TWO million dollars.

Dan

[QUOTE=Danyeager]

Start with TWO million dollars.

Dan

[/QUOTE]

Ba dum dum...thank you folks, don't forget to tip your waiters and waitresses! I'll be here all week.


Oh, and WELCOME BRUCE HERMANN.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Whoops, I got caught up in the joke:

Welcome Dan Yeager!!!! Any relation to Chuck?

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Thanks for the welcome, Bill. I really debated with myself, whether to toss a few smily faces onto that post.

No, no relation, but my first experience with making stuff up, when I was five, and he had just landed.

Dan

 

Dan:

Checked out your site. Terrific man...really. You're quite the inventory. Nice stuff!

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Uh, I meant "inventor"...

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Thanks, Bill, and thanks for dispensing with the smilys (I almost typed slimys)

Dan

Thanks for the very specific, practical advice, tippie53.

I want to add something here because I feel that it needs to be said:

Make sure you understand that I am "officially" retired. I have retirement income and I have money that was earned from the sale of other businesses to rely on and to live on. The past business ventures have taught me how to successfully run a business and deal with people and the tax man.

I now build guitars and sell them because I love building guitars and love music. I wish I could play the dang things better than I can, but I am happy to hear some of the beautiful music that is made with the instruments I build. One day Hesh and I are going to have a competition of who can play the better rendition of "smoke on water"

All kidding aside, I think you have got the best advice from some of the world's best luthiers. I hope that you really understand what each one has shared and the value of each piece of the puzzle. If you still want to be in the guitar business, I wish you the best of luck.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Heck yes I do. I really appreciate the advice from the perspective 'this is how I did it, what worked and didn't' as opposed to 'this is how you should do it in your situation'. I think the previous perspective can benefit more people than just myself.

Much appreciated, y'all.