Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sat Nov 23, 2024 4:05 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:21 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:14 pm
Posts: 761
First name: Blain
City: Leander
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Build
I'm wondering when everyone puts an end graft into their guitars, before closing the box or after?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:23 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:40 am
Posts: 1900
Location: Spokane, Washington
First name: Pat
Last Name: Foster
State: Eastern WA
Focus: Build
After, on all of the three that I've done.

_________________
now known around here as Pat Foster
_________________
http://www.patfosterguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:25 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:30 pm
Posts: 1041
Location: United States
Blain,
   I put my tail wedge in right after the neck and rear blocks are installed to
the bent sides to form the rim.

   This way, it allows me to work with the rim outside of the mold and to
clamp the rim onto a corner of my bench to cut the cavity for it.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:06 pm 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13386
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
I do what Kevin does.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:25 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:11 am
Posts: 2761
Location: Tampa Bay
First name: Dave
Last Name: Anderson
City: Clearwater
State: Florida
Zip/Postal Code: 33755
Country: United States
I do mine after the box is closed.

_________________
Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:33 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 6:25 pm
Posts: 2749
Location: Netherlands
After the box is closed. The reason's simple: once the sides are bent, they stay in the mold, no moving, until I glue the top and back on.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 5:36 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 2302
Location: Florida
I have done it 2 ways: after the box is closed and before the binding goes on and after the binding is on. When doing it after the binding is on, you have to use a router to cut out the pocket for the wedge.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:23 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:14 pm
Posts: 761
First name: Blain
City: Leander
State: Texas
Country: United States
Focus: Build
Thank you all.

I did my #1 as Kevin and Hesh do because it just made sense to me.

Now that I'm at that point on #2 I thought I would see what everyone else is doing because I had seen plenty of tutorials here on End Grafts that put them in after the box was closed up.





_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:30 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:16 am
Posts: 2692
I do it after gluing the head and tail blocks to the rim, before the top and back go on. At that point, I can clamp the rim set in a gunstock/patternmakers vise (what StewMac calls a guitar repair vise), with the vise jaws on the tailblock and the butt of the guitar up. The vise sticks out from my bench so the rims can clear the bench. I cut the dado with backsaw and chisel--old fashioned, but satisfying and not at all hard to do. I can easily clamp the graft down while the glue dries, since I can puyt a clamp around the tailblock.

I don't build in molds, so taking it out is not an issue.

BTW, Bruce Sexauer puts the graft in after binding the guitar. Lots of ways to skin the cat.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:31 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England
After the binding channel is cut, but before binding.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:21 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:26 pm
Posts: 201
Location: United Kingdom
[QUOTE=Colin S] After the binding channel is cut, but before binding.

Colin[/QUOTE]

+1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:43 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:49 pm
Posts: 2915
Location: Norway
After the body is built, before the binding chanel is cut. That way I can cut the binding channel across the end graft at the same time as I cut the rest of it.

_________________
Rian Gitar og Mandolin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:47 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1542
Location: United States
The best time for me is when the blocks are glued in. I can clamp straight edges to the tail block. Doing them after the binding cut is risky . If you chip out at this point you now have repair work that may shop.
    Find the technique you like .
john hall


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:07 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: Amherst, NH USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I install it after the box is glued up and the instrument is out of the mold. If I'm installing side purfling, I lightly tack a piece of purfling slightly wider than the wedge to the top and bottom of the guitar. When I cut binding channel, the router rides up on the piece of purfling and makes the binding channel shallower by the width of the purfling. I make the purfling piece a little wider than the wedge and cut ramps on it so the binding cutter rides up smoothly. I then only have a little cleanup to do with a chisel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:41 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:46 am
Posts: 1315
Location: Branson, MO
First name: stan
Last Name: thomison
City: branson
State: mo
Zip/Postal Code: 65616
Country: united states
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
next step after gluing rims to blocks. same reason as howard.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:48 am 
Offline
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:49 am
Posts: 13386
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
Last Name: Breakstone
City: Ann Arbor
State: Michigan
Country: United States
Status: Professional
Well something hit me when I reread this thread so I went and checked my shop.  Looks like I lied because I forgot to glue in the end graft prior to putting the back on this time.......

So I guess that I do it either way before or after now......





Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:55 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 1:41 am
Posts: 1157
Location: Siloam Springs, AR
[QUOTE=Mike Mahar] I install it after the box is glued up and the instrument is out of the mold. If I'm installing side purfling, I lightly tack a piece of purfling slightly wider than the wedge to the top and bottom of the guitar. When I cut binding channel, the router rides up on the piece of purfling and makes the binding channel shallower by the width of the purfling. I make the purfling piece a little wider than the wedge and cut ramps on it so the binding cutter rides up smoothly. I then only have a little cleanup to do with a chisel.
[/QUOTE]

That's very clever... Thanks for mentioning that.

_________________
______________________________
Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:56 am 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:02 am
Posts: 8551
Location: United States
First name: Lance
Last Name: Kragenbrink
City: Vandercook Lake
State: Michigan
Zip/Postal Code: 49203
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
[QUOTE=Colin S] After the binding channel is cut, but before binding.

Colin[/QUOTE]

+2

I have a nice jig that clamps to the closed up body and allows me zip right through the process. It takes me longer to get the jig off the shelve than it does to cut the channel.

_________________
Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:20 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:59 pm
Posts: 241

I've pretty much done it in all the various ways described. It depends, if it is a steel string dovetail guitar with body constructed separately from the neck the graft goes in at the rim stage before top and back and trimmed in place when routed.


If it is a classical guitar which is assembled on a solera (work board) I will put it in once the neck/top/side assembly is together but before the back is on this facilitates the alignment of the back strip which usually matches the endpiece on my guitars.


The exception is something like a style 45 which has a complex inlaid and mitered endpiece. In this case a tapered slug (usually maple) is fitted without glue at the rim stage. This provides a smooth surface for the cutter bearing to ride on to cut the binding and purfling channels. The slug is then removed and the various strips are installed and mitered to intersect with the side purflings. 


 


 



Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:57 am 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 1667
I do mine after the top and back are glued, but before cutting the bindings channels. Reasons being, if I installed it before gluing the plates, and the plates moved a bit, now the end graft isn't centered perfectly, which is quite noticeable at the back junction, where the graft meets the backstrip. Been there..... changed my ways.

Second, if we cut the binding channels first, then we risk a blowout when we rout(assuming we use routers) the end graft channel, because it exits in short grain at the binding channel. By cutting the end graft channel first, if there's a little blowout, it's of no consequence, because the binding channel will be cut next.. Also, by routing te binding channel -through- the glued-in end graft itself, we have a perfectly seamless joint. Only time this isn't so is when we wish to do fully mitered purflings(45 style, for example)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:33 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:51 am
Posts: 3786
Location: Canada
After the binding slot if I am mitring the purf lines, before if its a lap joint. Using a downcut spiral, the blowout Mario talks about above is pretty much nonexistant for me.

_________________
Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:41 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 7:29 am
Posts: 3840
Location: England
This is a job that I've never even considered using a router for, steel rule, marking knife and chisel, it's done before I could get the bit in the router and set up a jig. OK if your doing a lot of guitars like Mario then router set up is probably justified but for the 3 or 4 a year builder?

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:06 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:56 am
Posts: 225
Location: United States

After reading this thread I'm going to re-think the way I do the end graft- I always mark my center lines on the tops and bottoms of the end and neck blocks but don't always line up the sides exactly on the line center line of the tail block as it will be covered by the end graft. I've taken the rims out of the mold, set up straight edges and saw cut the outside lines and then chiseled out the area for the graft.  All this has been described but I think in my case this leaves the chance for the graft to be slightly off of the centerline of the top and back joints, not good.  Seems like there is logic in gluing the top and back on, and before binding, cut that slot, insuring that the end plate is perfectly in line with the top and back centerlines.  I'm sure most of you guys have that covered but for me as an amateur, it's not a given!  Thanks for the good ideas.


_________________
Bruce Herrmann
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:28 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:45 pm
Posts: 4337
Location: United States
[QUOTE=grumpy] I do mine after the top and back are glued, but before cutting the bindings channels. Reasons being, if I installed it before gluing the plates, and the plates moved a bit, now the end graft isn't centered perfectly, which is quite noticeable at the back junction, where the graft meets the backstrip. Been there..... changed my ways.Second, if we cut the binding channels first, then we risk a blowout when we rout(assuming we use routers) the end graft channel, because it exits in short grain at the binding channel. By cutting the end graft channel first, if there's a little blowout, it's of no consequence, because the binding channel will be cut next.. Also, by routing te binding channel -through- the glued-in end graft itself, we have a perfectly seamless joint. Only time this isn't so is when we wish to do fully mitered purflings(45 style, for example)[/QUOTE]


+1

Steve

_________________
From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com