Official Luthiers Forum!

I would be very interested to hear the membership's views on some practical considerations regarding policies and customer relations.

Specifically:

What is your policy regarding custom orders re: initial deposit and delivery.

Is the deposit non-refundable?

If the customer is not satisfied (and on what basis) will you accept a return? 

Do you accept waiting list deposits? And do you allow people to transfer their place in line? 

These issues are important and the proper handling of them will

spell the difference between a good and bad experience in dealing with a client. 

  

[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

What is your policy regarding custom orders re: initial deposit and delivery. [/QUOTE]
Initial deposit $250 and the balance of 50% due at start work, remaining 50% plus $80 delivery fee and taxes due before shipping.

[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

Is the deposit non-refundable?

[/QUOTE]
No. Well, mostly no. I'm a sucker for a sad story so it does depend on the circumstances. But I tell them no up front.

[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

If the customer is not satisfied (and on what basis) will you accept a return?

[/QUOTE]
If it is very custom or a lefty, I will not take a return unless I screwed up.

[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

Do you accept waiting list deposits? And do you allow people to transfer their place in line?

[/QUOTE]

Yes to both.

You can read my policies here. Check out my commission agreement and Terms and Warranty pages.

_________________
"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

I would be very interested to hear the membership's views on some practical considerations regarding policies and customer relations.

Specifically:

What is your policy regarding custom orders re: initial deposit and delivery.

[/QUOTE]
1/3 of commission price as downpayment
[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

Is the deposit non-refundable?

[/QUOTE]
$500 non refundable
[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

If the customer is not satisfied (and on what basis) will you accept a return?

[/QUOTE]
Depends on why. If it's something I did wrong, I'll make it right. If they just have buyers remorse in disguise, I'll offer to put the guitar in one of my dealer's stores and refund them the money (less any fees) when it sells.
[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

Do you accept waiting list deposits? And do you allow people to transfer their place in line?

[/QUOTE]
The deposit is what gets them on the waiting list. Until I see some money, they're just a-talkin'.
Do you mean transfer to another person? Like Joe decides he doesn't want a guitar anymore so he gives his spot to his friend Bob? If that's the case, sure, I guess I'd do that. I doubt it would happen often however, never has to me.

[QUOTE=DP LaPlante]

And do you allow people to transfer their place in line? [/QUOTE]

I interpret "transfer their place" as:

John's guitar is next to be built and so I call him. He says he still wants the guitar built, but is a "little short" on cash at the moment. Will I build the next (insert number here) guitars and then call him back. Or will he go to the end of the list and have to wait for whatever my backlog time is currently at...

Joe

Actually to clarify, my intended meaning of "transfer" was in a situation (which has not happened to me by the way) where speculators reserve a place in line with an up and coming maker, only to sell that place (at a profit) to someone else once the makers instruments were in greater demand.

I would be happy to know how you might deal with the situation you describe as well. 

Well, I had one guy who was in the guitar program at the local community college try that one. I politely told him that Noel Paul Stookey of Peter Paul and Mary has played my guitars for twenty years now and compared to that his exposure was not going to be too significant............

 One knows immediately whether a musician's use of his instrument will be significant and in that case you might offer the special deal first!    

75% bank cleared deposit down to reserve spot in build schedule. 80% refundable prior to material orders, 60% refundable after material orders, 50% refundable after construction start less $10 per hour spent on construction and less cost of custom cut inlay or used inlay materials after construction has started.

48 hour approval period. There must be an actual issue to return the guitar and I must be given the opportunity to resolve said issue. After which if unable to resolve the issue I have 30 days to sell the guitar prior to return of sale price.

Some ask why I prorate my deposit return.
The first 20% is to cover possible loss of clientele due to extended delivery. (yes if a client cancels it bumps everyone up but I put out quotes often daily and have lost several due to delivery time and my wait time is typically less than 6 months)

The second 20% covers time spent putting the project together ordering the materials and any restocking fee of things I would need to return

The final 10% is more or less penalty for waiting till the commission is in progress to cancel, then of course I charge for the labor and inlay material invested.

I do reserve the right to forgive these deposit penalties in certain cases like family tragedies and such. and I have in the past.

All this sounds extreme at first but if you have been burned as I have. I want to make sure the client is as dedicated to the build as I am. I also want to know up front that the client can afford the build. If I lose a client because of the high deposit, then the truth is they likely could not truly afford the guitar in the first place. I do not want to take money from a client that I do not provide a guitar to but in the same vain I do not want a client to spend my time with out reimbursement. For that cost me and the clients behind them time.

All this is written in my commission contract and is agreed upon by means of written signature of the client.

[QUOTE=terken] I am too much a sucker for a sad story, in reading the above I need to
toughen up. I'll add one more question if I may:
I've dealt with several professional players that offer to "show it around"
when out playing and get my name out there in the community. What they
are actually saying is they want a discount. I did it once but have tried to
hold my ground since.
How do you handle those types?
Terry[/QUOTE]

Terry

Saying they will show the guitar around is more less worthless. Nothing to back it up. If they like your work they are going to show it off with or without a discount. If they don't they are not going to show it off in a good light, discount or no discount.

Instead when confronted with this ask that if they like the guitar they write an endorsement and give permission to publish this endorsement. If they agree put in in you commission contract and hold them to it. Don't have a commission contract? get one my friend.

Or If you really got kahunas, build a guitar. Find a pro and offer the guitar to that pro at no charge out side of a written critique with permission to publish that critique. You will find very high level pros will be open to this offer. All it cost you is time and material but what it will give you, even if you get a very bad critical review will be well worth the money. I am doing this very thing at present. I do not want to at this time disclose whom the reviewer will be though it has been aranged and agreed to by both parties. As soon as I have the review in hand and have time to digest it It will be published on my website, and I am sure I will share here as well. That providing it is not a desater

After review I really did not answer how to handle that type of client at the time of quotation.

If they say they will show off the guitar in exchange for a discount. Just tell them

"In truth:If you like it you are going to show it off anyway. If you don't then your not. I don't give a first time client a discount but will give a 20% discount on return patronage. I can offer a rebate to you in exchange for a favorable written review and permission to publish the review"

Rebate amount
(say 10% after they have paid for the guitar and after you have the written and signed review and written publish permission in hand)

If you do something like this be sure to get written permission to publish as you need to be able to prove you had permission to publish to avoid legal issues.

    50% of full price deposit to initiate commission and secure a spot in the build schedule.

    75% of that is refundable if no materials have been procured for the guitar in question.

    No refund after any work has been done on the guitar, that is, until it is completed and resold.

    At that time, the guitar is resold and 50% of the original deposit is refunded.



    Spots in line are transferrable if both parties holding the spots are in agreement.

    If an order is cancelled, the spot in line is eliminated and all customers behind slide forward on spot in the build schedule.

   If a customer sells their spot at a pfofit to another person, the warranty is still registered and credited to the origianl customer and the person buying the slot is not the original buyer, so there is no warranty on that guitar.

    If my workmanship proves to be any less than the absolute best work that I can do or the materials prove to be substandard or faulty in any way, I will resell the guitar and refund the full price with the exception of a brokering fee.

    My work is not to be compared to the work of any other builder or manufacturer to draw any conclusion s to its quality.

   Tone is never a consideration for a refund of any kind since it is a completely subjective.

    Again the tone of a guitar built by me from any combination of woods is not to be compared to the tone of any other builder's guitar of similar size, shape or materials.

   I've had exactly one experience in this area when a customer received his guitar and "fell in love" with it after owning for a month. He waited about a year and decided that he was no longer a heavy ham handed flatpicker and strummer, but changed styles to a very light, fleshy fingerstyle playing.

   He then wondered why his Rosewood/Adirondack MJ that was designed and built to his specs wouldn;t deliver under his very light attack with the efficiency that it had when he was using an aggressive flatpick attack.

   I explained that his playing style and needs in a guitar had changed...not the guitar that he loved so much before and refused to accept the return or offer a refund of any amount.

I did offer, though, to point a few interested parties his way as he began to try to sell it. One iof them bought it up in an instant and sight unseen because he had taken delivery on several other of my guitar of that same wood combination before. It sold for twice the price that the original customer bought it for and both were happy and its buyer treasures it to this day.

   That original customer returned to me almost a year later wanting to place a new order on a Rosewood/Cedar guitar, but I gently refused his order because he wasn't the kind of person I want to work with. He's gone on to give a few other builders a hard time since then.

   Each situation calls for its own unique consideration depending on the situation of the customer.

   And don't forget....the customer is not the onlt one who can cancel an order. Too many times we hear about the way the luthier didn't deliver on time or that he said the guitar would sound like my Grandpa's Martin and it doesn't. People allow their expectations to mount up as they're waiting for their commissioned guitar to be completed and are disappointed even in that builder's best efforts.

   If a builder fails to hold up his end of the commission a customer can cancel, but on the other hand, if a customer proves to be hard to please and tough to work with, th builder can cancel as well. In those cases, the builder would likely be best of refunding 100% of the original deposit, but it would be to their discretion.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

   I mistated a part of my policy in that previous post and spotted it after.

   If workmanship or materials are proven to be defective or unstandard, THERE IS NO BROKERING FEE WITHELD UPON THE REASALE OF THAT INSTRUMENT.

THERE IS A REFUND OF 100% OF THE pURCHASE PRICE.

   The standard that workmanship is held to is my workmanship, not that of any other builder or production house. The standard for materials quality is that of the normal woods and components being used throughout the industry and according to the grade or price chosen by any customer for their guitar.

   For instance, Adirondack Spruce cannot be compared to a Master Grade Sitka or German Spruce top since the availability is so much more limited.

Sorry about the quick edit followup, but I thought it was important enough to post quickly.

Thanks,
Kevin Gallagher

   " My work is not to be compared to the work of any other builder or manufacturer to draw any conclusion s to its quality." 

   Kevin, thanks for your in depth responses. I think I know what you mean by your statement above as I too am trying to create an aesthetic in my guitars that is not easily comparable to most of the other stuff out there..........the problem is comparisons are inevitable, so how do you defend your stance?

Terken, this is why I started this thread....the building for me at this point (40 years) is pretty straight forward......it's this stuff that makes me cringe....... 

Best

Dave,
   What i meant by that statement is that my work is different than that of
Jim Olson, Kevin Ryan, Del Langejans and other builders so it can only
represent me just as these other builders' work represents them.

   If someone comes to me with a guitar that they purchased from me
saying, "Hey, this purfling isn't like the prufling on the Olson I looked and
that's what I really wanted." I have to tell them, "Well, you needed to get
your checkbook out and go see Jim Olson."

   We do things differently from one another and my designs and
execution need to be considered in comparison to my work, not that of
others.

I've seen established builders who get finish results that I would never
allow out of my shop. It wouldn't be fair for one of their customers to ask
for a full refund after seeing a glass flat high gloss UV cured finish next
to their blue tinted and rough water based finish. The customer needs to
know what they are getting and expect nothing more than that from the
builder. That about it.

    I've had people ask me to alter my bridge shape or head shape on
custom guitars and I charge a reiculous premium to do so simply because
those are signature details to our guitars and are arrived at, by most of us
through loads of artistic and functional consideration.

   If you want an Olson, put out the cash for it....If you want a Ryan, put
out the cash for it....and the same goes for any builder including you and
me. When people want what we make, we're the ones they need to come
to and then accept what we make as long as the materials and
workmanship are the absolute best we can produce.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Excellent Kevin.

On the custom peghead shape and such I feel the same way. In fact I have a current client that requested just that . He wanted a Gibson peghead shape on his (not logo) I put a fairly large premium to do so on the quote but I apparently did not put enough because he excepted. During this order we have become good friends with this client. I explained how it was not just the extra work but also the loss of the identity of my design that drove the extra cost, not extra labor

This is likely the last one I will change such on. While more than willing to make a clients guitar individual to that client, I to have put time and thought into the over all appearance of my guitars. I think from now on I will reject a change like that.

That sounds almost stuck-up, but that is so far from my personality. It is just that I am past the point of hoping to get orders. I have been fully booked consistently for a couple years now. While pleasing the client is still my goal Things like the peghead shape, Bridge shape as well as my logo are my calling cards.

As far as my high deposit, one of the main reasons is I know that in the past I have unintentionally taken order from clients that really should not have commissioned the project due to their individual financial condition. I never knew this in advance but found out later as final payment drug on and on. So I set the Deposit high with the express intention to those that really can not afford a handcrafted guitar from getting caught up in a financial deal that the can't swing with out duress. That is just bad situation for them as well as for me. I am sure I have lost some order because of this but I suspect not many from some one with the financial stability to afford the project. Besides I know I charge a good bit less than my equally talented peers. So I give my breaks up front in my base pricing.

Thanks Kevin and all for your additional clarifications and observations!

This is very helpful to me and I'm sure many others here.

So.............to take this to the next logical step, has anyone actuallly had to defend their position in small claims court or any other legal proceeding brought about by an unhappy client who contested your policy? 

Are there any important legalities we can use to protect our interests?    

Interesting thread.

For those of you that do not like to alter headstock, bridge, etc. designs because they are what identifies your guitars, perhaps it would be beneficaial to state in your contract that these "signiture items" cannot be altered. That would let the customer know up front that it's not even an option so don't bother asking.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Dave,
   I've only had a single cancellation prior to the purchase of materials and
beginning of construction on the guitar and returned the deposit while
witholding 25% of it for the firty hours that were spent on the phone and
the computer designing the guitar and coming to terms with materials
and options.

   I've also had a single cancellation after construction was started. When I
brought up my policy concerning cancellations after work had begun, the
customer (former customer) grabbed the legal department where he
worked and had them writing me letters.

    I simply responded to them with a log that I keep while buildng each
guitar that includes the cost for materials for individual components, my
charge for the time and effort necessary to locate and procure them,
phone and email hours spent in the design process and hours spent
building the guitar at $75.00 per hour whih is significantly less than they
will be charging him to get his refund.

   The subject was dropped quickly and I was able to sell the guitar before
it was completed and for almost double the price the original customer
had paid for it. At that time, I happily refunded the customer's deposit
with the exception of the resale fee....which was 50% of the original
deposit amount.

    BUILDERS BEWARE!! A small piece of advice that i can offer you all
concerning these issues is this.....Never commit to an absolute date of
delivery simply because we always have things come up that can easily
push us back on those projected dates.

    Make it very clear that you cmpletion date projections are estimated
and can change without notice. You never know when woods will exhibit
their ability to throw you surprises or tooling and other things will
present unexpected delays for you.....let alone other guitars and
customers that are lined up in your shop doing the same simultaneously.

    Most customers are very understanding of the situation of the small or
solo builder, but some can really throw a wrench into your works if they
decide to.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars