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[QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Regarding the footprint ... I understand where Dave is coming from, but sometimes size and stability is worth it. A great tool (IMO) far outweighs a mere "good" tool.

I have one of these radius machines and I say don't change a thing. I don't think you will find another jig that will do a compound radius that is smaller (at least I haven't seen one.)[/QUOTE] That's my point...maybe a smaller machine that could would be THE hot seller...niche...niche

I do agree with you to some extent Brock. Some of the best machines are those oldies that weigh a ton. But this is a Jig. Not a machine albeit you could call it one.

I have one too...I LOVE IT! I wasn't knocking the jig at all. What I was saying is that being thoughtful in these areas lead to better end results ( most of the time). For instance if the radius jig had been made of cnc'd aluminum, it could be smaller, much lighter, and perhaps manufactured cheaper in the long run ( if you were set up for that sort of thing) CNC has come down a great deal and it may be costly in the up front cost but I think ROI is quick and the results are consistant and reliable. Or perhaps there is a material that is lighter and stronger than what was used...I don't know, it is just something I thought was a consideration.

Too often we push and promote people, with good ideas or great products, to get into a business when they really are under capitalized. As a CPA, I have seen many a person with great ideas/products fail. So another point of Thought might be to analyze one's financial position BEFORE jumping from the fire into the frying pan. Right place right time..etc is often wise.
I was in no way knocking the jig. I just wish mine was smaller and lighter...I have a small shop stuffed with stuff.
I am one of Craig's biggest supporters and have chimmed in everytime someone has made mention of his Jig. I really like it and find it better than any other method/jig I have owned. It is also very versitile in that compound radii can be made and changed in a matter of seconds. Craig obviously put a great deal of thought into developing the concept. He probably just didn't have the funds ( I don't know...just guessing...so please don't get mad ) to go CNC or some type of milling machine that could make it from something other than wood.

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Wow, I like these brainstorming sessions as you have all given me a lot to think about. I'm not even close to taking a leap right now. I think I've been going through an early mid-life crisis for about 10 years now, and am trying to find a direction to work toward. I'm relatively new to the industry, but really enjoy the work and all of the camaraderie(is that how you spell it?) that I have found among fellow luthiers.

I've got a whole slew of jigs in my head that I would love to develop, and have heard many great suggestions from all of you for new jigs as well, but unfortunately, I do not have the funding/time that it takes to do so right now. That's why I was wondering if there are luthiers out there who have made their own jigs that might be interested in having them built and sold by CT Holden Luthiery and Supplies.

Brock was right on about the low overhead, and another part of the reason that my jigs are priced as reasonably as they are is because of the materials that are used. They are certainly durable and precise, yet not as "professional" looking in appearance because of the expense of other materials. I've had requests to build a high end model of the radius jig, but just can't afford all the experimentation again. Thanks for all the positive feedback from all of you who are using it, that helps me a lot.

John, I hope you're not joking because don't think I wouldn't consider it...but, I certainly hope you're not leaving for at least the next 30 years or so! You have given me a wealth of advice and encouragement, and if anything, I'd rather work with you than buy you out!

Don, yes, you are the one that planted this seed...we'll see what we can do.

Oh, and by the way, I have spoken with Bill Moll and he asked me to write a new column in Guitarmaker on Jigs and Fixtures which I'm going to attempt. It will start in the summer issue (I think they already did one for the next issue.) Anyway, in addition to my previous request for already designed jigs to build and sell, I'm looking for jigs that I can do a write up about for the magazine. Feel free to send anything my way.
And, thanks again.

Craig
www.cthluthiery.com

[QUOTE=Dave-SKG] [QUOTE=Brock Poling]
Regarding the footprint ... I understand where Dave is coming from, but sometimes size and stability is worth it. A great tool (IMO) far outweighs a mere "good" tool.

[... lot of stuff snipped]

...so please don't get mad ) to go CNC or some type of milling machine that could make it from something other than wood.

[/QUOTE]


Gosh, did I seem mad? I hope not. I rarely ever get mad. I hope you didn't take it that way. I was just offering up another point of view.

I agree with you on most of your points.... especially about businesses being under capitalized. -- Amen brother.

I think trying to be a stewmac or LMI is probably a mistake, but milling parts, making jigs, and offering stuff that nobody else is.... well, I think there is a business in there somewhere.

And... thinking like an entrepreneur... if you can grow a little organization like that far enough and make it profitable, you might (and I say ** might **) be able to sell it to one of the bigger firms.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=ctholden] Oh, and by the way, I have spoken with Bill Moll and he asked me to write a new column in Guitarmaker on Jigs and Fixtures which I'm going to attempt. It will start in the summer issue (I think they already did one for the next issue.) Anyway, in addition to my previous request for already designed jigs to build and sell, I'm looking for jigs that I can do a write up about for the magazine. Feel free to send anything my way.
And, thanks again.

Craig
www.cthluthiery.com [/QUOTE]


If I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion?

How about a write up for a home made pin router complete with plans etc. This could be a jig that you could make and sell as well as offer the plans for. You could offer to share full size templates etc. from your web site and drive a lot of people in to look at your other jigs.

I bet you will get a lot of takers on the ones you have built already....

That way it will be good for ASIA and good for you. Win-Win.



Now, go finish that fret slotting jig so I can buy one.   

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

You know you guys are talking about cnc and the expense of putting a unit out well let me offer this...

In 1995 a buddy and I created a world changing (for certain people) device in his garage. We could'nt afford to have it produced, but we found a machine shop that would build the parts one at a time for a fairly reasonable price. We started sales. After about a year we found a second machine shop that would beat the price if we ordered five at once. Our company grew like mad. A year later we sold it.

Point is there are little guys out there that are hungry just like you. Find them and they'll do things for you most others won't. It's nice to call someone and say I want 10 units and they send you a box of parts. You put em together and double your money.

In fact my brother in law has threatened to quit his cnc operator job put a cnc machine in his garage. If that happens I'll let you know

Brock,
I must be THE most mis-interpreted/mis-understood person on this site ( no wonder why I get in so much trouble!). I didn't take your comments as being mad or anything. In fact I think they were right on and solid.

I appologize if my reply somehow seemed antagonistic or defensive. I was just trying to give some clarification of what i was saying. I guess when you grow up in a Place like Jersey City ( left almost 25yrs ago) you just can't get the "J.C. attitude" out of your words. SORRY BOUT THAT !!! I realy don't mean to sound "mean".

p.s. when I refered to "don't get mad" I meant Craig, don't get mad for me making the assumption that he couldn't afford CNC.Dave-SKG38533.4210763889

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

We are cool Dave. I was getting the sense that perhaps you were upset by something I said...

No worries. None.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

[QUOTE=Dave-SKG] Brock,
I must be THE most mis-interpreted/mis-understood person on this site .[/QUOTE]

Ahh, we still Love ya Dave!   

_________________
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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

you can get the boy out of joisy but not the joisy out of the boy!

Lance,

I like you pic in your sig so much I copied you... how ya like mine?

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John...The basic design is outstanding, but your motto looks like a performance review I got at work once.

Carlton

Thanks Lance! At least I know some one cares....

Side note...I wish you would teach us how you do so many great things with that camera of yours. You always have great photos / shots of things and your graphics look real pro like. Are you going to have that Somogyi video or any others of the Symposium available for sale or rent? LMI took video footage one year and still is selling them. I don't know if they even compensate the speakers. I bet you could find out easy enough tho. I bet your videos are great!

_________________
Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Craig,

a couple of things to think about and reflect on as you develop your business plan...

Someone mentioned CNC...today an entry level CNC setup is easy for a business to justify...the key is to generate enough business to pay for it. That could be in making parts for others or producing your own designs faster and more consistently than by hand and by jigs.

Regarding whether that business should be in making jigs and tools for others or making parts, you should check out http://www.gurianinstruments.com/ . Michael Gurian was a very successful Luthier who started in the late 60's/early seventy's but who today has made a very good business making wood parts for other luthiers. He mainly does things like bindings, purfling, bridge pins and such but uses alot of CNC to simplify and is used by most of the large guitar factories which he supplies with wood parts that would not be cost effective for them to make in house. He has found out that he can have a much more sustainable business making parts instead of guitars.

John, Love it!

Dave, I did tape Somogyi voicing class, and am editing it now. Im going to be giving it to ASIA so they can do with it what they want.

_________________
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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

[QUOTE=Shawn] Craig,

a couple of things to think about and reflect on as you develop your business plan...

Someone mentioned CNC...today an entry level CNC setup is easy for a business to justify...the key is to generate enough business to pay for it. That could be in making parts for others or producing your own designs faster and more consistently than by hand and by jigs.

Regarding whether that business should be in making jigs and tools for others or making parts, you should check out http://www.gurianinstruments.com/ . Michael Gurian was a very successful Luthier who started in the late 60's/early seventy's but who today has made a very good business making wood parts for other luthiers. He mainly does things like bindings, purfling, bridge pins and such but uses alot of CNC to simplify and is used by most of the large guitar factories which he supplies with wood parts that would not be cost effective for them to make in house. He has found out that he can have a much more sustainable business making parts instead of guitars.[/QUOTE]


I agree. But I think if you wanted to "home brew" one of these businesses there are a lot of things you could offer, and at a low level ebay would be a great place to start. (Not that ebay is a be all or end all market, but a low cost place to enter)

Some items I think you could sell day in and day out.

1. Custom radiused and slotted fingerboards.

2. The aforementioned with routes in them for common inlay patterns.

3. Bridges made from about every wood under the sun.

4. Different bridge footprints and designs (from the standard belly bridge, to more contempory bridges, to pyramid bridges) etc.

5. Tuner buttons out of every wood known to man.

I think products like this would sell very well on ebay and *** MAY *** make enough money in the near term to pay for some basic CNC equipment, and enough to let you step up to more sophisticated tools.

... the point is, I think with a modest investment and some entrepreneurial drive you could bootstrap yourself into a decent little business.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Craig

I must confess, I turn green with Envy at the sight of some of the jigs etc, being made over in the states by yourself, and blues creek. Being in the UK if I need help with jigs etc. I have to have them custom made, I guess we don't have enough demand over here.

I really like the pictures of the stuff I have seen from you and wish you the greatest of sucesss.