Official Luthiers Forum!

Me again...  Thanks to all who yesterday have helped me in the 101 luthier first thread... I will keep watching the thread, but here's a new one...

OK let say we have in front of us a newbie like me who we convinced that a luthier guitar is the way to go...

He has selected a luthier, based on the fact he builds the kind of guitars he is looking for (or any other personnal reaon like... he is cool!)...

If we accompany him in the purchase process...

What are the questions he should ask before he finalizes the buy?

What subjects should be discussed prior?

Thanks again!

Terms:  Including deposits, refundable or not, payment schedule, delivery expectations, grace/acceptance period, dispute resolution, ETA.

Warranty:  What is covered and what is not covered AND the expectations on the purchaser for the proper care and feeding of a fine musical instrument - guitar care instruction 101 so-to-speak.  You won't offend any one kindly letting them know how to care for a guitar, properly, and it is in keeping with the idea that your guitars represent great value.

Status Updates:  Discuss how this particular client would best be served with updates if they wish to receive updates at all.

And lastly - would they like fries with that?

Seriously a sample contract should be available for review and/or execution at the show - get the order!

OK, that is more for the administrative part of the transaction, thanks.

But what about what to ask regarding the guitar?

Remember, I'm a newbie viksiting the Montreal Guitar Show and I'm a little scared to buy a guitar that I will see in one year...

I'm not a seasoned buyer nor a pro musician...

I would like to describe to the world what happens when one decides to buy a luthier guitar...

[QUOTE=ToddStock]



5. Spend time talking to your chosen builder

6. Listen to his/her advice

 [/QUOTE]

Thanks a lot that will be helpful...

Can we go into details about number 5 and 6...  What will the decisions I will need to make before I buy...

I know it seems basic, but for a lot of guitar guys, they don't have a clue...

He should ask what kind of bike we pedal...

More seriously, when someone comes to me for an instrument, I ask them(just reverse the role if you're telling someone what to ask) what they expect from it. From there, I ask them where they'll play it most, what style of music, what strings will they use, what pick will they use, what they're string attack is, and do they sing or do they not sing, are they a strong singer, or will overtones sometimes cause them to have trouble find their vocal key? What's their favorite neck size and shape, will they provide a template and accurate measurements of it? In this same conversation, other questions will 'pop up' as we discuss the above, so we cover those as we go.

If, at any point, I don't feel comfortable with what they seek or if i feel another builder is better suited to their needs(for example, if the client is seeking a style of guitar/mandolin that I don't personally play or even enjoy), I'll suggest we part ways and they contact the other builder.

At this point, if we're still talking, we will be on the same page and understand each other very well. I'll narrow it down to some choices that I think will fit their vision, and we can narrow it down further with cosmetic choices from here.

[QUOTE=grumpy]He should ask what kind of bike we pedal...

More seriously, when someone comes to me for an instrument, I ask them(just reverse the role if you're telling someone what to ask) what they expect from it. From there, I ask them where they'll play it most, what style of music, what strings will they use, what pick will they use, what they're string attack is, and do they sing or do they not sing, are they a strong singer, or will overtones sometimes cause them to have trouble find their vocal key? What's their favorite neck size and shape, will they provide a template and accurate measurements of it? In this same conversation, other questions will 'pop up' as we discuss the above, so we cover those as we go.

If, at any point, I don't feel comfortable with what they seek or if i feel another builder is better suited to their needs(for example, if the client is seeking a style of guitar/mandolin that I don't personally play or even enjoy), I'll suggest we part ways and they contact the other builder.

At this point, if we're still talking, we will be on the same page and understand each other very well. I'll narrow it down to some choices that I think will fit their vision, and we can narrow it down further with cosmetic choices from here.



[/QUOTE]

Excellent!!!!

Mario your approach is not only very comprehensive it is a real service to the prospective customer too.  You both will know where you stand, or not, very early on in the possible transaction.  This process benefits all.

Keeping in mind that not all prospective customers will be the kind of customers that you enjoy working with is also very important.  It's a real pleasure for me to see a Luthier not trying to jump through hoops to fit a square peg into a round hole. 

One question please - when is pricing and payment terms discussed?

Thanks.

J-A, One thing that comes to mind from my experience at various shows is this: these are custom guitars. I think visitors at the shows often see them as guitars on display like at a local guitar shop. You pick it up, play it, if you like it, you buy it. But there are often little things that they don't like so they discount not only the guitar but the builder as well. Example: "The neck on this one is too fat, so I guess that means you, as the builder, build fat necks and I'll have to look elsewhere". I spend a lot of my time at shows trying to convince folks that I am a custom builder and these are just random samples of my work. If they want something built for them, then we can talk about specs.
Does that make sense?
Best, Paul

[QUOTE=Pwoolson]J-A, One thing that comes to mind from my experience at various shows is this: these are custom guitars. I think visitors at the shows often see them as guitars on display like at a local guitar shop. You pick it up, play it, if you like it, you buy it. But there are often little things that they don't like so they discount not only the guitar but the builder as well. Example: "The neck on this one is too fat, so I guess that means you, as the builder, build fat necks and I'll have to look elsewhere". I spend a lot of my time at shows trying to convince folks that I am a custom builder and these are just random samples of my work. If they want something built for them, then we can talk about specs.

Does that make sense?

Best, Paul[/QUOTE]

Yes it does my friend!  Thanks for this point of vue... All of this is a big help!

when is pricing and payment terms discussed?

By the time a player seeks me out and waits my wait time and we arrive at the above, they already have a good idea where they are in pricing.  And before we begin the above, I've taken a $500 deposit. Depending on the person, the above can take ten minutes or a full day(and then some); it's part of the guitar's cost. Final cost is determined once we have all the details nailed down, by adding up the tab.

I guess at a show, you'd begin by giving a rough price range.

If I put on my guitar buying hat, here are a few questions I would ask?

1. What are the features that make one of your guitars better than a high end factory guitar? Once that question is answered, can you explain in detail why I will benefit? For example, if he states he adds sound ports, what will that give me in terms of sound?

2. What woods are best suited for my playing style(top and back)?

3. Based on my playing style, are there any "enhancements" to a standard guitar that you can suggest, and why would you suggest it?

Paul, you make a great point...I did that exact same thing at a guitar show before I started building. I played a guitar from a custom builder and the neck was too thick, so I moved on thinking he only made thick necks. I think if the builder would have explained to me before I played it, that "this neck is on the thick side, but can be made thinner" I would not have walked away believing he made only thick necks. On the other hand, if I'm there to buy a floor model and not have one ordered for me, then I would still move on to find a guitar that fit my hand better.
Tracy

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

I've only sold 2 guitars so you may not want to listen to me. But this seemed to work for me. I asked the customer to bring his favorite guitar and play it for me and then asked him what he liked or didn't like about it. It didn't take long to figure out what he really wanted.Hope this helps

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

The prospective buyer needs to be walked through all the apocryphal information that they have been fed over the years.  It really is amazing how much there is.  They read bits and pieces of information, here and there, and over time it gels together into an often bazaar conglomeration.

Myth and reality, expectation and reality.  There is a huge education curve relating to materials, construction, and the future maintenance life of the guitar.

Mario was right on the money.  So many times the prospective client thinks that they need a particular product, but when the stop and analyze their needs rigorously, the real solution might be something else than what they thought they needed.  An experienced luthier will be able to guide them, by listening closely to them, and know which questions to ask.  Its a bit like being a matchmaker.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

[QUOTE=douglas ingram]
 Its a bit like being a matchmaker.
[/QUOTE]

Bingo

 

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Say what you do, Do what you say.

A prospective client needs to have a clear idea of the features that he or she wants and has played enough guitars to establish the fact that those feaures are not present in any of the commercial offerings available.

At this point the builder can help zero in on what can be done for them and can offer options that may or may not be essential to the stated needs.

"Selling" a potential customer who does not have a clear idea of what they want or need is just asking for trouble further down the line and most builders who are experienced will avoid this ("gee, I didn't know a classical guitar would have such a WIDE neck"!?) And a customer who is "a little scared" to buy a guitar sight unseen is likely to make both your life and their's miserable by the end of a project. 

I'm with Mario, send them off to play lots of other guitars! recommend someone else to them if they (or you) are unsure of the arrangement.    

   

They should ask; Can I get one of these?

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

   A very important thing that is often overlooked and can lead to some
disappointment in the completed instrument concerns neck profile and all
of the dimensions that make it up.

    Nut width has become a hot topic when custome guitars are being
discussed, but it is only a small part of the group of elements that
determine the level of comfort that the player will ejoy while playing any
guitar.

   I've played loads of guitars that really spoke to me tonally and were
outstanding in fot and finish, but the neck profile just let me know that
they could never be my guitars....and if they were, they would never be
played much.

   I have a policy that I've used since day one. I will discuss neck shape
with a customer at length since it will play a large part in the quality of
the relationship that they have with the guitar. I owned a beautiful black
Martin D-45 that had a big clubby neck that I just couldn't get
comfortable with. It spent much of its time in my posession in its case
until I sold it to a friend who lves that type of neck shape. It looked great
and sounded even better, but the neck prevented me from enjoying it.

   After all of this discussion, I'll send the rough shaped neck to the
customer up to three times during the construction of the guitar so that
they can feel it. They simply send it back and we discuss changes that
they'd ike to see and feel in it. Once it's to their liking and is comfortable
for them, I do the final shaping and sanding and get it ready to finish.

   We'll spend hours and hours talking about top and back woods and tap
tuning and voicing, but very little on the neck issues.

   So, I feel that a very important thing for a customer to ask is, "How will I
know that the neck shape will be comfortable for me?"

   Also, I said earlier exactly what grumpy did above in that I talk to the
customer and if they seem to be looking for something that another
builder specializes in, I give them that builder's contact onformation and
send them to him with my blessing. I've had people come to me...as have
other builders...asking if I'd build what it untimately an Olson or other
builders' guitar. Partly because they don't want to pay the price for them
and, partly, because they had worked with me before and enjoyed the
experience and wanted me to build what another luthier does.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars