Official Luthiers Forum!

[QUOTE=douglas ingram] Go Bombers!It was a very close game. 3 points! Bombers and Roughriders, how cool a Grey Cup was that!
[/QUOTE]

Ya I guess I should be careful what I post, My wife is from Roblin, Manitoba. We do a pilgrimage back each year to visit with her 95 year old grandmother and her brothers so I need to check my loyalties before they mistake me for a gopher

Shane

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Canada

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer] [QUOTE=JNixon] Be careful. Mario sent a message to Deb at MIMF threatening to sue her for allowing a message that was critical of his product to be posted. [/QUOTE]

Inless there is another one, the threat of Law suit was because she had posted and auction with some wood that I had donated. Deb had posted, under my advice of course, that it was called "lutz" spruce. Mario claimed that he owned the name as he had copy written it. Since it is a "common" name for a species of tree he is not able to "own" it. [/QUOTE]

Hmmmm... I wonder if that is accurate. I know Mario has spent a bunch of time and money trademarking (not copyrighting) various names for Picea lutzii, knowing that the species name Picea lutzii was not trademarkable. "Kermodie" was the beginning of it, but there are now quite a few colorful names that Mario uses to try to distinguish the individual trees that he has felled. He has also taken the time to send sample tops of the various "sub-sub-species" (for lack of a better term) to Brian Burns for scientific testing. It appears that Brian has indeed found that the individual sub-sub-species have more variance than say Sitka, and above and beyond visual/aesthetic characteristics (uniformity or variance in color, presence and degree of bearclaw or curl, etc.), that naming strategy may be valuable for a luthier pleased with the results from a wood purchase to acquire more of that one sub-sub-species. I know, some luthiers are turned off by Mario's "silly" names for the trees, but once you have actually seen, felt, and tapped on the various sets from those trees, it really is obvious that they are quite different. (Notice I said "different" not "better". I don't personally have enough experience to know for sure that the tops that are extra stiff and have a long ringing sustain are "better" or not, though I suspect it is true.) Shane, from what I have seen of your "Lutz", I'd say you have either cut fewer trees than Mario or that so far you are hitting a pocket/grove of less genetic/hybridization variance. Again, from what I have seen, your tops appear pretty uniformly creamy/white, and have a very small lateral curl mixed in with the medullary rays. It looks like Mario's prized "Curly Bear", which has drawn rave reviews from quite a number of luthiers. So, it doesn't surprise me that folks here at the OLF rave about your Lutz. You are both cutting trees from the same forest, very close to the same microclimate. That means you'll eventually hit a tree that is substantially different than what you have cut so far. Maybe you'll hit a lutzii tree with longitudinal curl, or one that is remarkably stiffer than anything you've seen prior, or one with distinct red or pink markings intermingled with the white - you know, something that sort of gives away the genetic makeup of the Sitka Spruce + White Spruce hybrid that is lutzii. I know you won't call yours "Red Wonderwood" or "Red Bear" or "Mutant Spruce", but I bet you'll realize there is more than marketing behind all of Mario's names for lutzii.


[QUOTE=Shane Neifer]...But then again he has threatened to sue me for "stealing his idea" on tonewood. Anyway, I don't want to get going on who is better and this is not the place for debating another mans character. His forums seems a good place, I am banned even after never having posted a single thing on it, so I don't know for sure but if it helps others get building then that is great! [/QUOTE]
Hmmmmm... I don't think that is very accurate. Shane, you may recall that you used to post on the Luthierforum, and that I tried to calm down the spitting contest between you and Mario - when he expressed his anger and felt you were a "claim jumper", harvesting lutzii after he had spent his time and money promoting it as a superior tonewood. As I said then, and will say again, you guys have to get over it, and try to patch up the hurt feelings. It would be really cool if you could have posted in this thread, "Hey, I'm out of Lutz right now - you may want to check with Mario DaCosta", which is the exemplary fashion that I have seen ALL of the other tonewood vendors on this site display - even reaching beyond the ranks of the OLF sponsor tonewood vendors when necessary.

I'm not a tonewood vendor. I'm a beginning luthier looking online for lutherie information. I regularly visit several luthier forums (fora?), and glean what I can from each. I'd sure like to see the conversation steered toward less divisiveness and exclusivity, and more toward a unified and inclusive sharing between luthiers of all skill/experience levels. Otherwise, if I show up at an OLF get together at Bob's Zoot Cave, then show up at the Luthierforum Gathering, you guys won't know whether to hogtie me or debrief me.

[QUOTE=Shane Neifer]...At the end of the day if he is supplying wood that makes good guitars and he keeps his forum going to help others then I for one can easily live with his flippant moments. I hope others can as well.

Shane [/QUOTE]
Well, I have seen William Cumpiano stating that wood he got from Mario was among the best, and something very similar to you about the Lutz he got from you. Since you guys are cutting trees from within a few miles of one another, I would think it wise to replace the "if" in your sentence above with "since." Since it's all Picea lutzii from the same general forest. And I sincerely hope you two neighbors can work it out. Let me know if you want to get "un-banned" from the Luthierforum, and I will be happy to talk to Mario for you.

OK, group(s) hug!

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis,

If you re-read my posts I think you will see that I was straightening out facts and even, in a round about way, supporting Mario. I am not going to debate detailed facts that you have raised in a public forum. You have obviously heard on side of a story. I will send you an e-mail and give you another perspective.

I am quite sure that your health following a Zoot Cave gathering with be as good as it was when you entered. This is not at all about "us against them". This sandbox is WIDE OPEN!

Best

Shane

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Canada

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but please allow me to make a couple of observations:

Charlie, I have to agree that Mario has some very high prices on a few of his top sets. As an amateur, I can't pay that, even if the quality of the wood is "master grade" (whatever that REALLY is), or if I fall in love with the figure/color/bear claw in the wood. Now, if I was a pro luthier selling guitars in the $3000 on up price range, then I would consider a $300 top set if I wanted to - just the same way that I might also consider a $300 Ziricote set, or a $300 Koa set... In fact, since most luthiers agree that the top provides the major platform for the overall sound of the instrument, it really makes more sense to upgrade the top and downgrade the back and side set, if there is a budget crunch and you still want great sound. Mario offers some tops with starting bids of $0.99, some for $9.99, some for $39.99, and on up. It's just as easy to ignore the high priced tops from Mario as you would ignore the very highest priced back and side sets from other tonewood vendors - without being angry at them for offering it.

I'm also curious what you mean when you say you are spotting "runout" in a photograph of an unfinished top set on Ebay. With my amateur eyes, I can spot runout in a photo of some finished guitars, where half is light and half is dark, but I sure can't see that in a photo of the face of the raw wood. Or, do you mean runout as in curl, like curly Redwood tops?

I actually have a couple of sets of the ultra-expensive tonewood from Mario. As I said, as an amateur, I couldn't afford it, but Mario was quite generous and gave it to me as a prize for the first Luthierforum instrument building contest. Again, I am an amateur, so take my opinion "for what it's worth", but I have spent some time over the years tapping on tonewood. I also had an excellent opportunity at Grant Goltz's house to tap on prime "world-class" examples (master grade?) of Lutzii, White Spruce, Italian Spruce from 2 sources, and Dan Minard's Red Cedar, for direct comparisons. I am in the camp that says there is not one tonewood that is better than another. They are different, and in the hands of a skilled luthier, they can all be coaxed into exceptional musical instruments. Well, I'll tell you, the really really expensive tonewood that Mario gave me is superb, world-class tonewood and there isn't a luthier here that would tap and flex it that would disagree. That is, unless that luthier wants uniform white wood for tops.

And that brings me to my other observation on Picea lutzii ("Kermodie", "Roche", "Lutz" - you pick the name you're comfortable with.) This isn't just adressed to Charlie, it is for anyone who is curious about Picea lutzii. When modern tonewood grading standards were invented (which I think may have been by Allied's Todd Taggert, then with LMI), I suspect that the grading was done under bright lights with eyes wide open. In other words, to differentiate wood which was otherwise equal, aesthetic characteristics became the basis of what got piled into the "master grade" or "AAAA" grade pile, and tops with more color variation got placed in the AAA pile, or maybe even the AA pile. I guess this sort of makes sense (visually, at least) for those species that are "pure", such as Sitka, Adirondack, and German Spruces. However, in my opinion, it is a huge mistake to apply that grading system to Picea lutzii, and here's why:

For background, here is a scientific whitepaper (with a highfalutin title) dealing with lutzii: Isoenzyme Identification of Picea glauca, P. sitchensis, and P. lutzii Populations Allow me to grab two snippets from that whitepaper:

"The general form of many trees was often similar to that of white spruce, but cone size and cone scale structure were more like Sitka spruce. Other trees were intermediate between the two species."

and

"Trees in some areas appeared to have intermediate morphological characteristics."

What does that mean? Picea lutzii is a hybrid cross between Sitka Spruce and White Spruce. If you have ever seen a litter of puppies from the union of a Black Labrador and a Dalmation, you won't be surprised, but it means that the individual trees may display just about any percentage composition of the genetic elements. Some Lutzii Spruce is very similar to Sitka Spruce, some Lutzii Spruce is very similar to White Spruce, and some Lutzii Spruce has a mixed character blending the qualities of the two species to varying degrees.

That tells me that some master grade Lutzii Spruce looks like Sitka with an overall pink to tan/pink coloration and some master grade Lutzii Spruce looks like White Spruce with a creamy white cast and tan growth rings, and some master grade Lutzii Spruce looks like ANYTHING between the two extremes.

I mean, my interpretation of master grade material relies most heavily on the stiffness and especially the tap tone of the material, and in the case of Lutzii, the color of the wood should not affect my decision to place a board in the "master grade" pile. (I know "master grade" implies more than color, but I'm isolating that one variable.)

Is the horse dead yet?

Like Filippo said, I hate to see folks taking potshots at someone who isn't here to defend himself, and so I spoke up. If someone takes potshots at Shane on another forum, I'll speak up too. And, I hope folks realize that Lutzii has much more color variance than other tonewoods, and should not be judged too harshly on color.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

Dennis
Im not taking any "potshots" personally
(I can only speak for myself here)
If it seems like that please everyone know that it was not my intention, at all!
Im only giving impressions on how I percieve his personal marketing style.
I know that Mario is an accomplished wood person,, he probably knows very well what he is looking for woodwise,, thats great - he also has a growing clientelle with some fairly distinguished builders as clients, also,,,
People who know a hell of alot more than I do thats for sure.
I just mentioned that Shane is probably the more luthier minded of the two of them - Of course I could be wrong on that score too!
(I personally look for a luthier minded person when I buy instrument wood - as opposed to someone who is purely a miller or woodcutter)
Youll notice that my post was peppered with statements like "from what I hear " and "from what people tell me" and "from what I understand" and "Be your own judge"
I purposely did this in order to not to make definitive statements, as matter of fact, or to antagonize anyone,
but to illustrate that this post of mine was an opinion and one based on second/third? hand information and opinions potentially.
I did however let people know about his auction, which as you can attest Dennis - there are some great bargains on from time to time...
I also stated that he treated me more than fairly by allowing me to remain on the forum an extra year free of charge, and said that "he hasnt treated me badly"

SO please dont try and single me out as bashing Mario -   I really do like his forum, and the people there,
and although I dont have many dealings with Mario personally, he was cool enough in the ones that we did have,,,
& I love Eben (the moderator there) hes a super cool guy!
The one statement I did make about the wood w/runout - was from the last of the curlybear tree billets(I think it was a while ago) - At the time there was wide discussion about the billet amongst luthiers...
I dont want to even start that again,,,
I prolly shouldnt have phrased it like that...as I wasnt able to inspect the wood and dont know for certain,, but as usual, my opinions are based on the opinions of those who know more than I do.
Anyone who knows me, knows Im just starting in this journey of luthiery... as such take my opinions for what they are worth - most do.
Cheers
Charlie

Charlie, sorry I singled you out. Arnt and Anthony expressed opinions about nomenclature and pricing, which I think are kinda fair game, and I did offer some insights/opinions into both those topics. The runout issue hit me differently. You said "I saw an Ebay auction a while back for some ridiculously priced kermodie spruce, it was beautifully bearclaw figured... but the runout on it was horrible!! " That comment left me with the impression you were trying to warn others that the overpriced wood might look beautiful, but was defective. So, it made me wonder what you saw in the photo. Honestly, I'm even more perplexed now that you say it was a billet, meaning you saw a single piece of wood and not bookmatched halves. I'm really curious what you saw that made you know that the "runout on it was horrible." I would probably need to slide a knife blade into the end grain, parallel with the face, to know where the runout was on a billet. How did you know? I'm sorry to put you on the hot seat, but I am really curious.

"...please dont try and single me out as bashing Mario..." Charlie, I didn't say you were bashing Mario; I simply challenged one of your statements. If you relied on another luthier that told you the billet had horrible runout, then my curiosity shifts to that person, and what they saw in a billet to confirm or even suggest runout. I'd appreciate knowing how to spot and reject defective wood in billet form.

I don't think you are malicious at all. I have enjoyed your posts both here and at the Luthierforum.

Take care,

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

[QUOTE=DennisLeahy] So, it made me wonder what you saw in the photo. Honestly, I'm even more perplexed now that you say it was a billet, meaning you saw a single piece of wood and not bookmatched halves. I'm really curious what you saw that made you know that the "runout on it was horrible." I would probably need to slide a knife blade into the end grain, parallel with the face, to know where the runout was on a billet. How did you know? I'm sorry to put you on the hot seat, but I am really curious.

Dennis[/QUOTE]

I could do with some advice on how to detect runout from a photo to, unless extreme, I struggle to pick runout even with the plates sitting right in my hand.

Cheers

Kim

Kim,

It’s not your fault! You are forgetting that in the Southern Hemisphere the runout goes the other direction.


My advice is to grab a slab on the way home. Once home the instructions are:

1.     Visit slab then look at wood.
2.     Visit slab then look at wood.
3.     Repeat as necessary until you see runout or you can no longer see.   

Just needed to add a bit of humor

Philip

_________________
aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

[QUOTE=larkim]


I could do with some advice on how to detect runout from a photo to, unless extreme, I struggle to pick runout even with the plates sitting right in my hand.



Cheers



Kim[/QUOTE]

What Kim said.

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GregH
Fot Wuth

Trademarking trees- I love it!!!!!
Are luthiers marketing and charging extra for this feature?
Built it and they will come........

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

Just in case it isn't clear to newcomers, I am not -that- Mario.

My spruce is soon to be trademarked "Curmudgeon Spruce", though I may spring for the more catchy term "Curmudgie Spruce". Mine will be a hybrid of red, white and black spruces, with a bit of  balsam fir thrown in for color. There, that outghta make the world's finest tonewood. Yessir....  Look for it at a tonewood dealer near you, beginning in the fall of 2507. We are accepting orders now! But wait, order 1,000,000 or more sets of Curmudgie Spruce TODAY, and we'll throw in not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4lbs of bracewood, ABSOLUTELY FREE!

Anybody know of a website where I can learn to genetically modify stuff?

Shane I think that you should name one of your pets Dolly.  Then you can differentiate your Lutz as being blessed by the Dolly llama.......

Blessed might be a poor choice of words there, Hesh! 

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

   In talking to people who have used wood from Shane or from Mario, I have always heard glowing reviews. I have bought a fair bit of wood from Mario, and he has always been very good to deal with.

   One time I bought a big raw bolt from him (which was not very expensive to say the least, and he states clearly he cannot be sure of what you will find inside a large raw bolt of wood). When I cut the wood I wound up with a couple usable sets, and the rest had issues. He asked how it was when I cut into it, and I let him know, but was clear I was happy with the 2 sets because the price was still fine. Without prompting, he took it upon himself to pack me up a flawless 5" thick cut billet, because he wanted to be sure I recieved good usable wood. I believe that speaks to his desire to deliver good product and satisfy his customers.

    I actually ignored Mario's offerings for a quite a while, because of all the marketing that struck me as very "used car" so to speak. I would have likely tried dealing with him much earlier if he had a milder approach.

    Shane's marketing is much milder and really gives you a feeling of honesty and integrity. You are also struck by the loyal customer reviews he gets.

    Funny thing about when I finally decided to try out a bit of Lutz. What developed my interest was reviews by customers of Shane's, but Mario's persistent advertising and access was in front of me when I was in the mood to try some.

    They are the source for this wonderful wood. I suspect the more people that try it the more demand there will be. I am sure that demand is going to keep them as busy as they want to be.

Rich

[QUOTE=Hesh] Shane I think that you should name one of your pets Dolly.  Then you can differentiate your Lutz as being blessed by the Dolly llama.......
[/QUOTE]

This is in the running for the funniest thing I've ever read on the OLF. Score 1 for Hesh.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Ok
I dont want to be reactive to you Dennis - I really appreciate your input here and at Marios forum,,.
I prolly fely a little singled out, and I should have been more tactful when posting - point taken.
Well I dont want to open a can of worms here about the billet,,,
But at the time (I will see if I can source the actual thread as to alleviate the confusion) there was a a discussion about the billet in question at the time, a link to an ebay auction = the spruce,,,
From what I have been told about the tree in question
(and I may be confused here... Im always willing to concede that might be true)
there was signifigant twist in it when there was prime pickings... and the best billets were able to be extracted...
So when it there were only the "remains" left, as it were.. perhaps there were questions about what the quality of the remaining wood might have been,,
Even so I was not criticizing Mario, or the standards to which he adheres to in his wood offerings..
But there were bids on the billet and it eventually sold...
As to the runout comments - I was "as I said earlier in the thread" basing my opinion on those who know more than I do about the subject,,,
I hope this will portion of the thread will die, as the main question has been answered
Where to buy Lutz (kermodie, spirit bear, etc)
Shane, Mario or someone they have sold too,,
thats who.....
Cheers
Charlie

[QUOTE=konacat] Kim,

It’s not your fault! You are forgetting that in the Southern Hemisphere the runout goes the other direction.


My advice is to grab a slab on the way home. Once home the instructions are:

1.     Visit slab then look at wood.
2.     Visit slab then look at wood.
3.     Repeat as necessary until you see runout or you can no longer see.   

Just needed to add a bit of humor
[/QUOTE]

It suddenly dawned on me that people may have been confused by my use of the term “slab” and thought I was talking about wood. In Aussie slang a slab is a case of beer.

Philip

_________________
aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

Ah, grabbing a couple of brown ones from the two-fer would be visiting the slab! 

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Ok how about this!!!!!!
I am tired of this fight I have had with Shane.
Enough!!!! I wish him the best and to his family.
I now offer my handshake in friendship.
He has to be ok if he has llamas too
That said let it be done on my part that I will not
have any further bad blood between me with Shane
And I hope he will feel the same way.
As for the statement that my forum has a charge
It does not and has not had one in a long time.
So all is good
Merry Christmas
mario

_________________
Discover on your own.
Look at things in a new way
Ask the questions that matter
Be a leader and own your own mind
Contact Number
No business Questions Please
604 674 2250 text only

[QUOTE=Mario Dacosta] Ok how about this!!!!!!I am tired of this fight I have had with Shane.Enough!!!! I wish him the best and to his family. I now offer my handshake in friendship. He has to be ok if he has llamas tooThat said let it be done on my part that I will not have any further bad blood between me with ShaneAnd I hope he will feel the same way. As for the statement that my forum has a charge It does not and has not had one in a long time.So all is good Merry Christmasmario
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for coming here and trying to patch things up between you and Shane. I salute you!

And welcome to the OLF! Come on back and visit anytime you feel like it.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

I'll heartily second Dave's statement.  Both Mario and Shane are providing a great service for us folks building guitars. 

 

 

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Admit it - it was the llamas.......

Usually Thursday nights are pretty slow on the OLF and if you want a good fight you have to start it yourself.......  Not that I would know mind you.......

Where is that popcorn eating emoticon?????

I love Llamas
mario

_________________
Discover on your own.
Look at things in a new way
Ask the questions that matter
Be a leader and own your own mind
Contact Number
No business Questions Please
604 674 2250 text only

Ive got a donkey... does that count?

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

You need one of these up here



mario

A good idea.  Cover your butt during the rut

_________________
Discover on your own.
Look at things in a new way
Ask the questions that matter
Be a leader and own your own mind
Contact Number
No business Questions Please
604 674 2250 text only