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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:01 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I'm about to start my first guitar and am worried most about the finish. I'm an experienced woodworker and on many of the items I build I like to use true-oil or danish oil, topped with minwax wipe-on poly. Has anyone here ever used this combo on an acoustic? I don't need to know what you've heard, but what YOU have experienced.
Today is my first posting, but I have been reading the forum for a long time, you folks are really great.

Thanks,

Ron

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:45 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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HI Ron

I have used Danish oil and it gives a nice finish (To my Tastes intially), In my opinion it doesn't last as well on an instrument as other finishes, but for my tastes shows more of the natural beauty of the wood. I am not familiar with the Miniwax product, I have use Polymerised Oils, from the name does it contain wax. It general finishes containing wax should be avoided as they can kill the acoustics of an instrument.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:03 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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HI Ron and welcome to the forum. I am currently doing a DVD on guitar finishing and I cover the topic of oil finishes and demonstrate one a guitar. First of all, I would never use linseed oil or other straight oils on a guitar because there is not enough protection, they dry slowly, are quite soft and they penetrate the surface. Polymerized oils act more like a varnish. Tru oil or gun stock oil falls into this catagory. They are also more expensive. It is easily applied and gives a decent finish. They can develop cracks if applied too thick. It is also easily repairable. Be sure and seal the guitar with shellac before hand to minimize penetration.
Wipe on poly is the same thing as a danish oil but a lot less expensive. The advantage over polymerized oils is that it has polyurethane added as a resin and this gives you more protection. It also dries much harder. This is good on a guitar. It is easily applied, cost effective, adds good protection if built up and available in either gloss or satin. If you desire satin I suggest you apply gloss and rub out to a satin sheen later or apply gloss and then use the satin product which has flattening agents only for the last couple of coats. This will give your final product more depth and clarity. Even with wipe on polys I like to seal the wood with shellac before applying.
There is a good article in this month's Fine Woodworking magazine about wipe on finishes for those interested in learning more.
Hope this helps


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:02 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks, guys

So, Robbie, you're saying there is no need to use the danish, just several coats of the poly? Is that right?
I was pretty sure it would work well on the neck, back, and sides, I was mostly wondering if the poly would hurt the tone when used for the top.

Thanks again,
Ron

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:22 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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The wipe on poly is Danish oil. It is just a mixture of tung or linseed oil, with a thinner (usually mineral spirits) and a varnish. You could make your own by mixing these three ingredients together but minwax has already done that for us. If you are concerned about the tone on the top try sealing the top with shellac beforehand, It is always a good idea.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 1:43 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks Robbie

Ron

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:13 pm 
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Cocobolo
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[QUOTE=Ron] Has anyone here ever used this combo on an acoustic? I don't need to know what you've heard, but what YOU have experienced. [/QUOTE]
I know I'm not qualified to offer this under your ground rules, but I've seen a lot of discussion of using tru-oil over on MIMF (register and look in their library) and some at the acoustic guitar mag forum
My understanding is that most people that use Tru-oil do not top it with anything. It seems that most people that try it have success with it.
I was going to buy some Tru-oil, but I decided to go with the wipe-on poly. I'd be interested in hearing how the combination turns out.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Thanks, Eric
You're forgiven for not following the rules, since you've used wipe on poly. How do you like it and do you do anything special to seal the top?

Thanks again,
Ron

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:03 am 
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Koa
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Old Man,
   The oils that you've mentioned are great for furniture where general overall contact through household use is the case and resonance or vibration ability doesn't matter, but, sadly, they're not going to be the best choice for your acoustic guitar. I've used every finish that I've ever heard of at least once to give them a try and to be able to experience their effects on the guitars. Some were immediately obvious as a disaster that first time, but if one showed promise and potential as a guitar finish, I would always give it another try using different methods of application and supplemental materials like sealers and isolation coats to get better results with them.
   
   Tru-oil or Danish oil are popular for their deep penetration capabilities and for good reason on furniture surfaces, but that penetration is one thing that makes them unsuitable for the body of an acoustic guitar. I've used both as a direct application finish and they add weight to the pieces they're wiped into and they don't harden to the point that is necessary for the guitar's protection under normal playing conditions, at least for long. The application of oil finishes to the body without a sealer to prevent their full penetration from occurring can cause the guitar to sound as though a rag is stuffed inside of it. The wipe applied poly is another great finish, but in another woodworking genre. It is soft and not very durable so it works off quickly under a few pick strokes or fingernail strikes. Beleive me, when I prototype a guitar with a trial finish, it gets played and by multiple players who are encouraged tot treat them like their everyday guitars.

    The reason that there are a few finishes that have become the industry standards for lutherie is that we've tried it all and have narrowed it down to those few options that present the best results on all fronts for ease of application, durability and ability to allow the woods to vibrate freely which is essential to good tone and volume. Even the builders of some of the finest classic guitars today have moved into the current century and are using the much more efficient and durable finishes available to protect their guitars. There will always be those who hold onto tradition with their hand mixed and homemede shellacs and that's simply for tradition's sake since the same or better results can be achieved with a modern finish while providing a more secure longevity for the instruments. Violin buildrs havecontinued to use their shellac finishes and I respect that since so much credit has been given to the finishes of the old masters. I've been to several seminars by noted violin technology researchers that have given much more credit to the finish for the great tone of those old master built violins than was due. I'll still lay my money on the craftsman's abilities and intuition before his selction of finish material when great tone is in question. The violins that they brought to the seminars lightly covered with their replica shellacs in an effort to mirror those of the finest builders of all time sounded like student violins at best in my opinion and fell far shy of the quality of the true master creations of Almati and Stradivari and the other best known masters. Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent on the research to recreate those old finishes and all they have to show for it are some nicely finished instruments with entry level tone. Credit needs to given where it is due and it was in the building skills of those true masters of lutherie not their choice of finish since they would most likely have chosen a light application of nitrocellulose lacquer and a well organized spray booth if the technology was available at the time.

    The old time industry standard in guitar building is nitrocellulose lacquer which has been around for decades and widely used by Martin, Gibson, Gretsch, Guild and Taylor before the California VOC law adjustments that forced him to move to another finish. Ther are a few newer water based finishes that are excellent and time efficient and give results very similar to lacquer without the bluish tint that was eveident in them for years. KTM-9 available through LMI is the best on the market in that category with its easy application, tradionalt workability and great gloss capabilities as well as a warm satin. Ther are a number cross linked finishes and catalyzed finishes and others that offer good results, but can be difficult to apply to certain species of wood. Another alternative that is growing in popularity is the high tech UV cure Polyester finish that is used by Taylor, Ryan, Olson and a few others. It is more durable than any other finish and can be more of an investment than a hobbyist will be willing to make with its expensive curing light equipment anmd the huge expense of the finish itself falling at a whopping $65.00 a gallon and the HAZMAT fees for shipping. I use the UV and have had a great time learning and tweaking it application process, but it has been an investment in both time and finances to arrive at the point where it's being applied to shipped guitars.

   I would recommend the KTM-9 to you since it can offer great results while being either sprayed or brushed on. It sands nicely and builds quickly to give easy leveling results for final topcoats. I would strongly advise against the use of the Tru=oil or Danish oil though...at least on the tone generating body og a guitar. The neck would be a fine place to try those finishes since they can provide a great woody and natural feel, but they will most likely prove to wear pretty quickly under normal playing conditions there, too.

Just some suggestions and options for you to consider. I'll be finishing up my 500th guitar this year and have opportunity to try everything that comes down the road so I'm just offering you my experience.

Regards and just my opinions here,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:14 am 
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Koa
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Kevin, there's a guitar-building book lurking inside of you. One day, you should let it out.   

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:37 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I agree with Kevin,
you mostly see oil finishes on electric guitars and basses where tone is not as much of an issue as an acoustic instrument. Oil varnishes are penetrating finishes and this penetrating affect can be minimized by first sealing the wood with shellac.
Probably one of the reasons why beginning luthiers reach for an oil varnish when finishing is that they are very user friendly and you don't have a large expense with spray equipment etc. There are pros and cons with any finish you use. KTM9 is a decent product and should be considered as well but even this has its downside.
Perhaps now you can understand why there are so many diferent books and other sources of information available on the subject of finishing and still people hate doing it and some even send their projects out to have someone else do it for them.
Good luck with whatever finish you decide on using.     


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:21 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Has anyone brushed on KTM-9? If so, I'd be interested in some tips that worked for you, i.e. brush type, schedule, etc. I'm a few days away from doing this and would greatly appreciate the advice. TIA

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:13 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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JJ,

Here are some shots of me refinishing an electric with KTM9 and brushing it on. Here I am using a cheap foam brush with good results. As you can see there is good flow out. Once youput it on, leave it alone. Try not to go back and rebrush it. You can pretty much follow Mike Doolin's finishing schedule even if you brush it on.
Mike Doolin finishing schedule





Robbie O'Brien38540.6366550926


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:20 am 
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JJ, I haven't brushed on KTM-9 but I have brushed on KTM-4. I basically followed the schedule for spraying. I used dewaxed shellac as a base and lightly sanded that trying to get it as level as possibly but not sanding thru it. If you sand thru the shellac, recoat it because it will make a noticeable difference in color. Using 1.5" foam brush I brushed on trying to use as few brush strokes as possible. I recoated as per the spraying timetable 4 coats @ 45 minute intervals in one day.
Next day level sanded and repeated 4 coats.
The trick as with any brushed on finish is getting good flowout. I think a retarder is available from Grafted coatings that may help with brushing.

Also practice make perfect sense so give it a try and let us know how it goes.

Also check out the Grafted Coatings web site for their KTM-9 forum.John How38540.6518171296

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:11 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First of all, hello from me a new joiner from the UK - I've lurked for a while and found this forum very friendly, knowledgeable and useful.

Hi Kevin - nice to meet up with you again. I've "worried" about Tru-oil being penetrative and tone killing, but having used and experimented with it for a couple of years now and I don't think it does. Had you said Tung oil and Danish Oil I would have agreed.

I have had occasion to remove and replace Tru-oil finishes a number of times and it have found that it does not penetrate. Depends a lot on how you apply it. I wipe very thin coats using paper kitchen towel.

I now use thin Tru-oil coats on top of a thin French Polish (partly in response to initial fears about Tru-oil penetrating) and find this to be a great tonal finish. What I will agree is that it doesn't give as wear friendly protection as Nitro/KTM9/Poly etc or the same polished look, but the upside is that repairs/touchups are not hard.

On my baritone guitar, the top was finished with just Tru-oil and has been on the guitar for a year and a half, and the first thing people always comment on is . . . the killer tone, sustain and projection - not a trace of stuffed rags!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:51 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Kevin, thanks a million. What a great, knowledgeable answer.

Ron

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:57 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First: as a maker of both violins and guitars I must point out that the 'magic varnish' school of thought has pretty well died out. I think most makers these days would agree that the most you can expect out of a finish acoustically is that it doesn't hurt the tone too much. There _is_ a lot of debate about finishes, but it's mostly centered on the nature of the 'ground coat' and how things were applied and is more focussed on appearance. I really don't want to go into that much more here: it's a huge topic. Suffice to say that if you want to start a fist fight at a violin makers meeting, just quietly say the word 'varnish'. There has been some useful research into finishes done by the violin makers, though.

Oils, in general, suffer from a couple of drawbacks as guitar finishes. For one thing, they don't form a good protective film, but rather tend to soak into the wood. The lighter molecular weight components of linseed oil can soak right through the 1mm thick maple sides of a violin in about a year, before hardening. The other drawback is that all of the oils add a lot of damping: they 'eat' sound, and in particular high frequencies. The added weight and damping account for the 'rag stuffed' sound of an acoustic finished with oil.

Traditional varnishes are made by cooking a drying oil along with a resin. In theory the oil acts as a plasticiser for the resin, making it less brittle, and also keeps it from being damaged by whatever solvent would normally dissolve it (usually alcohol). The resin, in turn, helps the oil to form a film and keeps it from soaking in out of sight. Oil-resin varnishes do have more damping than straight resin finishes in general, and usually end up being thicker as well, but they can be among the most beautiful finishes, and are usually tougher than something like shellac, let alone one of the more brittle resins. Varnishes are hugely variable, and present certain problems in use, but can be worth the trouble of finding a good one and learning how to use it. My understanding is that ost of the 'gunstock oils' and 'Danish oils' are, in fact, varnishes of one sort or another that have been thinned out for wiping.

Solvent release finishes, like shellac and lacquer, tend to be hard and a bit brittle. They don't harden by a chemical change, and so can be damaged by exposure to their solvent. This makes them easy to touch up, since a new coat will 'burn in'. Sadly for shellac, the solvents are alcohol and alkaline water solutions, which seems to include sweat for a lot of people. Shellac does become harder and more solvent resistant with age, but it takes abut 75 years for it to get to 'impervious' status. The big advantages of shellac are that it's pretty much non-toxic and that it can be put on thinner than almost any other finish. It actually has lower damping than the wood, so that a shellaced surface tends to 'ring' better than one without the finish.

Nitrocellulose lacquer has been the standard finish in the guitar world for a couple of generations. In some respects it's a 'super shellac', with lower damping and a harder surface, and it's solvents are not things you run into every day. Sadly, those solvents are quite toxic. Unlike shellac, nitro gets _worse_ with age, as it is chemically unstable. Museum restoration people give it a useful life of about 50-75 years. The thicker you put it on the quicker it breaks down. Getting set up to spray nitro _legally_ is a costly proposition in most places, as it is an extreme health, fire, and evironmental hazard.

Clean air considerations have lead to the concoction of a number of water born finishes in the last twenty or so years. The early ones were basically nitro, acrylic or polyurethane finishes with emulsifiers added so that they could be whipped up with water. The early ones were pretty bad. I understand that some of the new ones are getting to be OK, but having been burned I'm going to wait a while.

There are several new finishes, such as the UV cure polyesters, that are pretty amazing, if the hype is to be believed. Some of them require special equipment to use.

The bottom line with finishes is that there is no _good_ instrument finish, in that they all have problems. You have to decide what you want the finish to do, and what drawbacks you are willing to put up with to get what's important to you. I currently use shellac, as French polish (and the use of it seems to be growing, rather than diminishing, in popularity), and an oil varnish when I want something with a little better wear properties. I simply can't tolerate lacquer any more.

   


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:15 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Well said Alan.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:54 pm 
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Koa
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Robbie, Kevin, Alan,

Thanks very much for taking the time to give us all that valuable insight.

Matt


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:47 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=Matt Gage] Robbie, Kevin, Alan,

Thanks very much for taking the time to give us all that valuable insight.

Matt[/QUOTE]

Is this forum a great place, or what!

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:34 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Robbie & John...Thanks for the KTM-9 brushing advice. I read Mike Doolin's schedule and it will be helpful.

Here's my dilemma right now. Due to my schedule I plan do the following:
...brush on 4 coats on Saturday
...level sand on Sunday and apply 4 more coats

Then I have to leave on Monday morning for 2 weeks. The question is...when I return, will the finish be too cured out for wet sanding and buffing or just right?

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http://www.DonohueGuitars.com


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:29 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Robbie & John...Thanks for the KTM-9 brushing advice. I read Mike Doolin's schedule and it will be helpful.

Here's my dilemma right now. Due to my schedule I plan do the following:
...brush on 4 coats on Saturday
...level sand on Sunday and apply 4 more coats

Then I have to leave on Monday morning for 2 weeks. The question is...when I return, will the finish be too cured out for wet sanding and buffing or just right?[/QUOTE]

JJ

I think the finish will be just about right. Good luck and post pictures when you are done.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:57 pm 
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Koa
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   Many times when we luthiers find ourselves stumped or looking for additional direction, we will search for something that Al Carriuth has posted somehwere for input. He is a great source for info and advice no matter how much experience you have so read his posts carefully and glean all that you can from them.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars


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