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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:01 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:20 pm
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Location: United States
I have used the K&K Western pickup for 3 guitars so far (all 000 models).

Followed instructions to the T and the pickups are glued beneath the saddle in the appropriate places.

Seem to be very base intensive. I love the pickups and the sound but wondering if there is a recommended device to use with K&K to get the mids and highs better balanced. I get some of this with my Fender amp but not real happy with that as an only option


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:13 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Hughenden Valley, England
Rich,

Are you using the K&K mini's? The bigger K&K Western has a tendency to be a bit boomy but the mini's are not - I'm not sure if this is the same as the "bassiness" you are describing.

K&K do their own preamps, which are matched to the K&K signal output but they also work well with the LR Baggs PADI's.

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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:29 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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K and K are versatile pickups. They do offer a simple beltclip preamp with trimable pots to set internally for your guitar. They even send along a little foam covered pot adjuster velcroed inside.

Retrofit: I've found that the K and K's will make a nice upgrade to UST piezo, unsolder and solder in the K and K's. Probably voids the warranty but utilizes the existing preamp.

You could always adjust the output too with other products like the Mamma Bear by Turner/Duncan Research and many others....

Or, you could upgrade and install the onboard preamp from K and K.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:54 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:10 pm
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Location: Madison, WI
I found the k&k mini to be the truest sounding passive system I've heard. I have had no trouble thus far with too much bass. The sound guys will tweak it if they need to, but every board operator I've asked when plugging in has had nothing but good things to say about the mini.
-j.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:05 am 
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Koa
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Ditto on the minis...

 And for sure, a preamp. Either the K&K ones, a Baggs Para DI. The K&K if you --must-- have it on your belt to tweak between/during songs, or if you can just set it and forget it, the Para DI really is the ticket.



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:23 am 
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Koa
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I installed a trinity system for a client once and he complained that it didn't sound enough like a piezo, even with the internal mic turned off. I thought that was the whole point but apparently he had grown to like piezo sizzle and edginess.


Is that part of the issue, Rich?


They don't sound like most piezos but I've never found them to be bass heavy.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:52 am 
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Koa
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Ha! I heard that same complaint, also. Guy said it wasn't electric enough; said it sounded too much like it was unplugged, only louder.

???

"That's the whole point", I said. "It's your guitar's sound, only louder". He never "got" it, either.

<shrug>

Some have gotten so used to the piezo quack, they actually miss it. Incredible....



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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:24 am 
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Cocobolo
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The K&K mini is the the passive pickup of choice for me.

Mark





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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:57 am 
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Koa
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Razor blade will work them loose. 


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:58 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Hughenden Valley, England
[QUOTE=terken] Anyone here successfully removed a cemented K&K without damage to the transducer or bridgeplate?
Terry
[/QUOTE]

Terry,

Yes I've taken one off successfully. The but is that I had to replace the top and so had the luxury of removing the transducers with the top off. They came off without damage to the transducers or bridgeplate by carefully wriggling a fine razor-blade in between the transducers and bridgeplate to break the glue seal. On the advice from Dieter at K&K I carefully scraped the remains of the superglue from the transducers, plugged the pick-up into my amp and tapped each one with my finger to test that they still worked fine. No problems.

It would be a bit more of a struggle/contortion but I suspect I could remove them in situ without too much trouble.

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De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:17 am 
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Koa
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I have removed several and only had one really stubborn one that just wouldn't come off...eventually it did...but was ruined. Take your time...the razor is the way to go.


As far as boominess...you need an eq/preamp as grumpy recomended.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:20 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:55 pm
Posts: 698
Location: Australia
We've just removed a K & K mini with razor blades and replaced it with a Fishman.

Same deal - young guy didn't like the sound because it didn't sound like a Takamine.

Some kids grow up thing that MacDonalds is a real hamburger.

Bob

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:22 am 
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Koa
Koa

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Location: Australia
Replace "thing" with "thinking"

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:49 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:20 pm
Posts: 632
Location: United States
Thnaks for all the feedback. SOunds like the eq/pre-amp is the way to go. I love the bass, but made this one for my brother and he commented in the past that my other 000 with K&K had lots of low end and he likes more middle and uppers (electric player at heart). Think I will go with the K&K pre-amp.

Thanks again guys and gals


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:10 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:35 am
Posts: 671
Location: United States
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
When I'm not building guitars, I do live sound at the theatres around DC.
I've had the opportunity to hear a variety of pickups in as professional a
sound system as there is in the Metro area -- Strathmore Hall with a d&b
Q1 line array, D12 amps, Midas console and the like.

I really like the K&K pickups, but there is a caveat that applies not only to
the Pure Western Mini, but the McIntyre Feather, PUTW and other
soundboard transducers: more than any other type of pickup, they turn
the soundboard into a large diaphragm microphone. It is for this very
reason that they can be highly susceptible to bass response as well as and
more importantly to feedback.

All these pickups are professional tools, but the industry has a bad habit
of marketing them, generally to amateur and pro-sumer applications. If
your set-up consists of a "acoustic" guitar amp on stage that functions as
a stage monitor as well as the main, you're going to have problems. If
you like your stage loud, you're going to have more problems. Period.

Professional systems have separate amps, speakers, and equalization for
FOH as well for monitors, that way they can provide separate EQ to
address feedback that originates on the stage without removing those
frequency bands from the mains. The biggest problem I run into both as
an engineer as well as a builder who installs pickups is the client who
pays for a professional pickup but the rest of his signal chain isn't even
close to professional.

Solo guitarists and your average singer/songwriter with modest stage
levels can have a stage sound that is very natural and can, with the use of
appropriate equipment, have pickups like the K&K that have a very
natural sound. All of these soundboard pickups do still have a slightly
metallic edge to them, but they do not have the snap that a UST has. On
the other hand they don't have the punch either. The D-Tar, with its
18volt system provides enough headroom to get much of the brittleness
out of the way. It's not as fully natural a pickup as the K&K, but its far
superior for its general presentation as well as its feedback rejection in
moderate to high SPL applications.

If you're playing in a band situation, I wouldn't usually recommend a SBT
because of both the issues of feedback from the monitor system --
bands tend to want higher stage levels which are problematic for a SBT.
The other issue is that our ears hear at best when we're really young,
20hz - 20khz -- but only once. We don't hear that frequency band for
every instrument in the band, every input. We have to share. If you mix
an acoustic guitar to sound "natural" in a full band situation, it'll get lost
in the mix -- it won't have any definition because its sharing all the low
frequencies with the rhythm section. Most of the low end should get
rolled off to make room for the bass, drums, and piano if there is one.
That leaves the midrange and highs to be the principle band of
information for a guitar. We may not like the sound of a UST as a signal
source because of their natural brittleness, although the various
modelling takes care of some of this, but the cut that a UST provides,
along with excellent feedback rejection make it a better choice for a band
situation the likes of CSN, Dixie Chicks, and so on.

The K&K is a wonderful pickup, in the right application, and used with at
the very least an inline fully parametric eq or 30 band eq to control
misbehaving frequencies before they get amplified. Another good choice
is the Shure dfr22, a DSP unit that generates micro parametric filters on
misbehaving frequencies as they happen to control and stabilize the
signal.




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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:26 am 
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For reasons like David Berkowitz states, thats why I highly recommend the KK Pure Powermix (powerblend ??) system (its a pure western and a piezo - separate, then mixed and controllable) for clients who sometimes (or more) need the high SPL without the feedback issues from the Pure western side of the pickup - simply turn its output off on the mixing preamp and all you get is the piezo. Then when you are doing a solo show at the local small club you can dial up more pure western level, less piezo (or none at all).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:33 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Russellville, Arkansas
[QUOTE=TonyKarol] For reasons like David Berkowitz states, thats why I highly recommend the KK Pure Powermix (powerblend ??) system (its a pure western and a piezo - separate, then mixed and controllable) for clients who sometimes (or more) need the high SPL without the feedback issues from the Pure western side of the pickup - simply turn its output off on the mixing preamp and all you get is the piezo. Then when you are doing a solo show at the local small club you can dial up more pure western level, less piezo (or none at all).[/QUOTE]

How reasonable is that. I knew that switchcraft stereo jack was good for something besides a microphone that feeds back too. Mario, here is one of those things we hang around forums for. It's the bee's knees!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:01 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 11:03 am
Posts: 154
Location: Australia

I have the K&K mini western pickup fitted in a weissenborn copy and an old Regal parlor guitar. Absolutely great natural tone, no noise and records beautifully. I don't even use a pre amp. If you would like a listen to the weissenborn copy go to


www.myspace.com/ozziebluesman


Cheers


Alan



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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:00 am 
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How about a guitar with both a D-Tar UST and K&K minis (separately output signals, of course)?

Maybe the ultimate set up would include a third signal from a magnetic pickup as well...? Overkill? Too cumbersome?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:29 am 
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Koa
Koa
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Location: United States
City: Duluth
State: MN
Country: USA
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[QUOTE=Todd Rose] How about a guitar with both a D-Tar UST and K&K minis (separately output signals, of course)?

Maybe the ultimate set up would include a third signal from a magnetic pickup as well...? Overkill? Too cumbersome?[/QUOTE]
You're getting close to (at least one of the setups) in one of Michael Gulezian's guitars.

Here's his setup: pickup combination

Gulezian is a very impressive player (IMO, one of the 5 best in the world), but is even more impressive as a composer. He blends a variety of musical genres and playing styles with a variety of fingerstyle techniques and attacks to convey an amazing array of emotional and musical content.

It probably sounds like I'm doing an advertisement for Michael Gulezian, but Todd's comment made me think that there are pro musicians out there that require more than any one pickup can deliver.

Now, if I wanted to do an advertisement for Michael Gulezian, it would be more like, "Don't miss an opportunity to see Michael Gulezian live!"

Dennis

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:22 pm 
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Thanks for your input, Dennis. So, there's one player out there anyway who finds a combination like I suggested (UST, SBT, and magnetic pickup) useful.

David B. - you still out there? I'd be interested to know if you have any thoughts about this as a live sound engineer. Your post above was very informative and helpful. Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:57 am 
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Koa
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The only problem I see is that the Dtar is on its own 18V system and the
K&K is passive -- but sounds best when used in conjunction with the K&K
preamp (there are some that have used the ParaDi with it and found it didn't
sound as good as with the K&K).

This is the kind of question I'd really like Rick to chime in on, and if I were in
the midst of such a requested install, talk to Dieter at K&K. My guess is that
you'd need two output jacks because the systems are so different. As Tony
mentioned, you can use the K&K UST in conjunction with their SBT without
any problems of impedence and the like.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 4:59 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Posts: 3389
Location: Alexandria MN
Thanks for your input David.  It's been extremely helpful.  Have you worked with the PUTW "dynamic trio" that has the #54 SBT plus an under saddle pickup?
Terry


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