Official Luthiers Forum!

I love the relaxing and tactile experience of carving each neck and bridge. It takes me far longer than the 6 hours for Michael, or the 45 minutes for Mario or 30 minutes for Rick...but I couldn't care less. And it takes me scores of hours and untold Ibuprophens to deal whth the repetitive motion from French Polish...but I love the process and the results as they get better and better by the hour. It's the luxury of building that way that's best for me. And I certainly learn a lot and I have a great deal of pride in what I have accomplished. And the sound continues to improve with each effort. And most importantly, I'm having fun.

On the other hand, I played a guitar last week that was "assembled" with a CNC'd neck and bridge. And it was sent out for finishing. The builder used his experience and creativity to incorporate materials and bracing to produce his sound. And the sound of that "assembled" guitar happens to be THE BEST sounding guitar I have heard in 40 years of listening! Go figure.

Isn't that the real point?...sound, music, enjoyment!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Mario aka Grumpy pretty well nailed my point of view.
Thanks, Mario!
Now, whether this 'personal revelation' from me will make Mario (or me) feel better or worse is a different matter!

Cheers
John

Cripes, the guy was only trying to say sorry and in come the piranhas again.



Don't see the point realy.

Kim

To Mr Turner,
I am not making the necks ecause I have not the time or inclination to do so. I do not have all the tools as yet, but my bigist problems is that my oldest daughter has been in intensive ccare for 2 weeks and I would like to finish hers and her boyfriends before she is well enough to play (God willing). It is also the reason post re:CNC was inartful AND RATHER CRYPTIC..with no malace of any kind intended. However, as soon as I learned of the brewing storm I appologised for any mis apprehension as to the meaning of the post. I talked to others over the past few months, thought to e-mail him but HE IS NOT EVEN LISTED AS A SPONSOR ANY LONGER, WITH NO LILK TO HIS BUSINEESS.
Perhaps it will ameliorate Mr Turners concerns about mu failure to build my own by having a new section in the forom entitled 'Luthiers who are not real luthiers.
I do no bash, denegrate, or put down anyone in this forum. I appologized and do so again. ALthough, parenthetically, this discussion seems to have enhanced the reputation of CNC

I am left at a crossroads. A few considered me 666 and others, given my history understand muy mistake have shown kindness.
However, if the powers that be determie that I was the culperate here, if asked,I will, with heavy heart, leave the forum.
That's all I can do or say.

Nice apology Bob. When I read your original post I saw nothing but an innocent question about John's company. Good of you to accept that some had issues with it.

Now about the lighthearted comment about the 3 guitars waiting for necks, Im surprised that someone would see it as whining and complaining.

Warren

I wonder if any of you guys or gals has a couple of CNC necks, sitting on your shelf, that you purchased from John Watkins? Maybe you ordered enough where you could spare a couple, and then you could re-order again when John is back up and running, without causing a hiccup in your schedule?

If so, in the holiday spirit, or just because you have a big heart, maybe you could contact Bob and help him out. Sounds to me like he just needs a couple of necks pronto to get some guitars finished, so he can put a smile on someones face. I'm sure Bob would be happy to place the replacement order once John is back in operation.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

BOBJ i don't believe you need to apologize to anyone on this forum. You didn't say or do anything wrong in my opinion so don't let this bull get to you.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Just to be clear here, I don't work in Bill's shop now and setting up my own. So anything said here is my own thoughts and not to reflect on him please.

That said, I learned more in that shop than will ever be known. As Mario stated, Bill can be very direct and tell you how it is. He doesn't have time in shop for nonsense. However, he goes out of his way to show and teach as you work. He had more patience with me than deserved. Grumpy your out of the woods on turning his beard white, I made it even whiter. I know he is on the phone with others daily and helping them. He is doing the A.S.I.A business and more, then he has had to put up with me. I got more out of the deal than he did by a long shot. I don't have the stamina or patience he does.
I also worked in another shop and same thing, there just isn't time to not have things stop because things ran out and shipment didn't come in. I just read a lot of threads where folks are thinking of going down the pro road and want to know what to do to get there and then ask where to buy pre made parts and get things done. I don't get it. Not saying you Bob are doing that and I do hope and have you and your daughter and family in my thoughts.

I would have kept down the track of getting stuff done, and as Mario said become a kit builder if not for Bill keeping on me and making me think. Do I have it down yet, Nope, but I will get there. If one wants to do things the other way that is their business, I was and think others just making comment that there is more pleasure and acomplishment doing it all. Once have all of down and can do it, one may think of going into business and putting out more guitars and at that point maybe the easier way works.

Thing is if all doesn't go well, get out the tools and do them yourself. I know in my past shop, all the necks are done by hand. I will do them that way as I have no thought it will ever happen for me to produce a bunch of guitar a year. To old and to much to learn.

The tools required to hand make a neck are very few. For a Mexican builder in Paracho, it could be nothing more than a cuchillo...a knife... a saw, and a jointed blank.   

For one of us Norte Americanos it could be as simple as a hand plane to establish the fingerboard surface and perhaps peghead ear glue joints, a Japanese pull saw to perhaps cut a scarf joint, a bow saw to cut the side profile, and then a drawknife, spokeshave, Nicholson #50 rasp, and some sand paper.   A router or table saw would be nice for cutting a truss rod slot, but you could do that with a hand rip saw, a guide and a 1/4" bent chisel.   For blending contours, use some strips of 60 or 80 grit cloth backed sand paper scrounged from a belt sander belt and use them "shoe shine" style.   You should be able to make a neck...ready for overlay and fingerboard from correct sized stock in less than four hours this way, and that's with time for coffee and an Internet break.   

Yes, it takes learning how to use hand tools, but isn't that at the very heart of being a hand made guitar maker? Even if you do eventually choose to use CNC'd parts?

When I wrote the article "Helping Hands" (for Acoustic Guitar Magazine) about how CNC machines have revolutionized acoustic guitar manufacturing, my most interesting two interviewees were Bob Taylor and Michael Dresdner.   Bob's point was that he could train a good luthier...someone who knew how to build guitars by hand...to do great CNC programming, but he didn't think that CNC programmers coming from the metal working industry "got it" about guitar parts.   Dresdner basically posed this question: " Are your customers buying an object...a guitar...or are they buying an anachronistic performance of building a guitar?" He likened the hand vs. CNC thing to folks who watch a recreationist cabinet maker working in costume at Olde Sturbridge or Olde Williamsburg making chairs and tables as part of an historic demonstration of life in Federal American times...and buy that chair that they saw being made...vs. going to a good furniture store and just buying a nice chair that fits their ass really well, not thinking about how it's made.

What's amusing here, of course, is that we have the pros lining up saying "Learn to do it by hand...", and the hobbyists defending the inclusion of CNC'd parts. Supreme irony, I'd say...

I don't feel the need to defend CNC'd, lasered, pin routed, shaper template guided, table sawn, router tabled, or hand made parts.   Parts is parts, and that's what goes into guitars.   Perfect parts make it easier to make really good guitars.   What separates the men from the boys is who designs the parts. I don't use generic wood parts, and I have a lot of respect for my peers who do the same. It doesn't matter to me much whether the parts are outsourced; what matters is if the parts are designed and integrated in to be a part of an original whole design.   But that's my own aesthetic speaking there.

John was getting slapped around while he's in the midst of moving. A little investigation would have revealed that information. It's back to doing homework before going public. The Internet is a very unforgiving jungle.

Let it go already. Don't you have $ to make producing guitars?

sigh

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Actually, I didn't think we were pickin' on Bob at all. I thought we'd moved past that to just plain generic educating.

Why do folks get upset for others? Paul's all in a huff, yet he started the whole thing by defending someone who wasn't in need of defense and had already responded! Haven't we learned from past mistakes that getting upset -for- someone never works?

Now, can we go back to debating the "cart before the horse" which is buying parts instead of learning to make 'em? Don't anyone get all personal; when we use "you", it doesn't always mean -you-, the reader(or your buddy). "You" is more often used as a generic term. Maybe if we used "y'all" it would be simpler....

On another note, yesterday, just for kicks, I glued up 3 scraps of the same maple off cuts. One with hot hide, another with bottled hide, and the 3rd with mucilage.  I was just in the shop to close up, and remembered to check 'em out. The best bond? By far, mucilage! I kid you not....! Smoke that one for a while.

Le Page's? That's fish glue... Check it out. Long and illustrious history in y'all's wonnerful outback of Canada...

Not LePage's, but an off-brand. Same Bottle, same funky rubber tip, though(could be the same glue, just re-labeled). Found the bottle at a "Michael's" Craft Store a few months ago, and bought it just for fun. dang stuff is impressive, at least on the short term... 

I am very happy for all of you who derive such great pleasure from carving your own necks.
Time constraints however, do not permit me to indulge in what I am sure is a very sensual and tactile pleasure.
I am not equipped at present to build my necks the way i would like to and the inordinate time I spend with my daughter in intensive care preclude partaking in your enjoyable work on the necks.

As I have previously stated, I have no objection to placing my post in a new section such as:
'Non luthiers who use CNC necks" I hope this will appease the 'true luthiers' here.
Judge not a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins

What is mucilage? I realize it's a glue, but this is the first I've heard mention of it. I did a search for it and the only thing that I can find is a 1905 Treatise on Glues. Unfortunately they only show the index and I don't think I want to spend $105 to read the book.

You said it was the best so far. What is bring you to that conclusion?

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Aoibeann

http://www.amazon.com/Ross-Mucilage-3oz-Bottle/dp/B000931O9E

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John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

On my first guitar, I made 5 necks before I got 1 right. It was a pain in the patootie, but now I can carve a neck in about 2 hrs. I never even considered CNC because of the cost, but I also like to be able to make my own stuff. YMMO

[QUOTE=grumpy] Not LePage's, but an off-brand. Same Bottle, same funky rubber tip, though(could be the same glue, just re-labeled). Found the bottle at a "Michael's" Craft Store a few months ago, and bought it just for fun. dang stuff is impressive, at least on the short term...
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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

[QUOTE=Aoibeann]What is mucilage? I realize it's a glue, but this is the first I've heard mention of it. I did a search for it and the only thing that I can find is a 1905 Treatise on Glues. Unfortunately they only show the index and I don't think I want to spend $105 to read the book.



You said it was the best so far. What is bring you to that conclusion?[/QUOTE]




mucilage





1. An adhesive prepared from a gum and water.
2. A liquid adhesive which has low bonding strength.




Interesting that it did so well   The basis for mucilage is plant gum, unless all the encyclopedias and dictionaries are wrong.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I remember this stuff from grade school. It didn't taste as good as paste, but it worked so much better.

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Aoibeann

[QUOTE=bob J] I am very happy for all of you who derive such great pleasure from carving your own necks.
Time constraints however, do not permit me to indulge in what I am sure is a very sensual and tactile pleasure.
I am not equipped at present to build my necks the way i would like to and the inordinate time I spend with my daughter in intensive care preclude partaking in your enjoyable work on the necks.

As I have previously stated, I have no objection to placing my post in a new section such as:
'Non luthiers who use CNC necks" I hope this will appease the 'true luthiers' here.
Judge not a man until you walk a mile in his moccasins[/QUOTE]

Bob, I I wasn't in an apartment temporarily with all my stuff in PODS, I'd send you 3 necks and a "Merry Christmas" and we'd be done with all this...I'm only sorry that I'm not able to do so at present...I will say here that those 3 necks are ones that I carved, but sat alongside a couple of others that were from John's CNC...this whole thread reminds me of the furniture-making days when the "sides" were, "ALL HAND-MADE JUST LIKE THE DAYS OF YORE" and "IF THERE'S A MACHINE TO DO IT, I HAVE IT!"...of course, a person should know how to mill lumber from the rough and hand-shape parts for furniture before he buys and relies on a hundred thousand dollars worth of machinery to do it for him...bench skills are the foundation, the power tools are a nice time saver...but you already know all that...your daughter is in my prayers for a complete and speedy recovery...I went thru the same with my oldest and so empathize completely with your situation...I think most of us who posted in this thread meant well...stay with us and let's see some pix of those 3 guitars when they're done!

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http://www.presnallguitars.com

[QUOTE=Aoibeann]I remember this stuff from grade school. It didn't taste as good as paste, but it worked so much better.[/QUOTE]

I remember that too, Lillian.  I also remember that I used to like picking the crusty glue off the rubber applicator.  I can remember spreading glue around on it when it was wet, so it would dry, and I could pick it off.  I used it to occupy my short attention span for whatever the teacher was saying.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Waddy you mean that you were not paying attention to the lesson on carving on stone tablets?????

Bob, I hope your daughter is doing better today than yesterday and makes a good recovery.

The best part of a hobby is choosing how in depth you want to go. From a personal perspective, I’d say everyone should make their own neck at least once to decide if it is something you want to do again. But everyone has their own reasons for why they do or don’t, either way, no big deal for a hobbyist.

I’m not going to carve my own neck for another build or two, but I am going to try it out just to see if it is something I would want to do again.