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I've just got back from visiting my old friend Martin Simpson and picked up a parlour guitar of mine that he has had "on loan" for the last 3 years or so. It's all mahogany and he thinks it's early 1910's 1920's probably sold via Sears Robuck catalogue. The guitar has many cracks and war wounds but souns sublime played slide (well by Martin anyway!). There are a couple of new war wounds that require tlc, and I'm new to repair - and especially on old guitars - so thought I would pick the brains of the great assembled talent/experience here. The main problem is a crack along the bridge pins and sligtly into the wings of the bridge, and a crack on the back treble lower bout. Here are some pics - excuse the rare sighting of "Bigfoot". Any input gratefully recieved:

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

    This is a trickie repair and actually the best is to replace the bridge. If you can get it off I can make you a new one to replace it and keep the old footprint. It appears that it may have been reset as I can see some finish line at the lower end.
    Another quick fix is to use some ebony dust and super glue to fill the crack. This will do but the crack will need to be addressed at some point. Is the bridge plate still in good shape? Often if one goes they both do.
     I like to keep vintage guitars as complete as possible and will use a brass plate instead of messing much with the bridge plate. This keeps the original parts in the guitar without adding anything.
john hall
570-682-8046

it may have been reset or it may have shifted a bit. it's hard to tell until you have it off.

i agree with john that a new bridge would be best,and would not recommend trying to glue it together. though if you are not familiar with finish repairs the best solution might be to make the bridge slightly oversize to cover the area of the disturbed finish rather than exactly duplicating it which would leave the disturbed finish visible..

i can't see the treble lower bout crack in the photo above, but it should be addressed as well. the crack should be assessed internally to see if there is an internal problem such as a loose or broken brace which might have either facilitated or been the result of the event which caused the crack. once the full extent of the damage is known the repair can be planned.

by the way, it is a very pretty little guitar; what does it sound like?crazymanmichael38546.7143055556

As John and Michael say the best solution technically is a replacement bridge, It is always difficult when working on an instrument of this age, as on one hand you want it in tip top shape, but you want to keep it as original as possible, Assuming the bridge is just stuck on then they usually realise as an instrument of this era is likely to have been put together with hide or animal glue.

Thats assuming it wasn't reset with something else. You could try what John suggests and just dress the crack, and deal with it more fully when it opens up again.

Just my two pennies (cents) worth, you are already in good hands with John and Michael

Okay, you guys are considerably ahead of me in these matters, but I've gotta offer a second opinion.

Keep this guitar original! Take the bridge off, examine the damage to it, and to the top/braces if applicable, and repair it. As the bridge apparently hasn't been messed with, it should be a prime candidate for a glue repair--not just a fill, but glue and clamp--'cause the splits should mate perfectly. Fill any remaining gaps when it's dry. Done properly, the glue line will be stronger than the wood, and it shouldn't split again, since that stress area will have been reinforced.

Be sure to measure the scale length before you remove the bridge. If it plays in tune now, just put it back exactly where it is currently. If not, make adjustments.

By the way, that saddle looks mighty low--does it need a neck reset?

Good luck,
Carlton

looking at the photo again i notice that the a bridge pin in not aligned with the rest, and the pin hole appears to be an elongated oval, or are my old eyes playing tricks on me?

making adjustments to a bridges location probably involves doing a lot which will make it unoriginal such as having to plug and redrill the pin holes, far greater finish repairs, etc. a new bridge with the saddle relocated if necessary would entail less strucural alteration to the instrument.

if the bridge has shifted on the top you may have to do a plug job on the top and bridge plate anyway as the pin holes get mutilated by the pins when the bridge moves.

have a look inside with a mirraw to determinw what condition they are in. if too elongated they will need attention too.crazymanmichael38547.1296759259

Thanks everyone for their input so far.

OK - the finish/reset: The neck has not I think been off the guitar and reset and the bridge hasn't moved. The guitar when I got it looked as though it had been lovingly played in smoke filled Honky Tonks for much of it's 80 or so year life and had an amazing crackled "yellow" nicotine finish on top of the original one! I had removed most of this but not totally up to the bridge and fingerboard (which is what you can see in the photos) before Martin "borrowed" it.

Sound: I bought it at a Trade Fair at a guitar workshop I went to as I love small guitars and just loved it's looks. Everyone else told me to leave it well alone due to the amount of cracks but I figured if it had got to this age without exploding . . . Trying to play fingerstyle was difficult due to the high action and intonation up the neck issues. The I showed it to Martin and he immediately took out his slide, put it in Open D and played and it was a revelation. The guitar just "growled" and Martin played his Blind Willie Johnson gospel repetoire and then put it in Open G and did Rollin' and Tumblin'. His comment was that the only thing missing from the originals was the crackle you got on the old 78's, and that a lot of these guys used guitsr like these that were widely available and cheap at the time. Also most have exploded and those that have survived tend to be good sounding ones. So I don't need a neck reset as the current action is perfect for slide - where the guitar really comes alive.

When the strings are under tension the crack opens up (photos were done slack) so it is a gluing rather than dust fill job. John - thanks for the offer but I don't really want to replace the bridge and would like to try a fix first. If the bridge has lasted this long I'd like to give it a little more time if possible. I can get the bridge off, but my first question is would it be possible to jig a clamping arrangement to glue the crack up with the bridge in situ?

The design is interesting as it is ladder braced top and back (4 braces each). The bridge plate is the width of the bridge, but actually is another ladder brace that goes all the way across the top with the wings sloped down. Removal and replacement I suspect would require removing the back and I don't really want to go there at present.

Here are some more pics of the bridge with strings and pins out, and the bridge plate as best as I could get with a mirror in the guitar:





Michael - here is a better picture of the back crack. All internal braces are fine and solidly attached. I would just like some advice on how to glue/clamp up the crack with side pressure whilst at the same time keeping the back aligned top and bottom. Then I assume cleats or a reinforcing strip would be glued inside along the crack:

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Dave,

My two penny worth (that's old pence not new) Keep that bridge, take it off and repair it, keep it as original as possible. As Carlton says the glue line will be the strongest part of it. There have been way too many elderly guitars ruined by having new parts put on when the original is perfectly repairable. The bridge plate looks to be knackered, the repair I suggest it to get some bone saddle stock and thin it to about 1/16th, drill to match the string spacing and double side tape it to the underneath, a reversable repair. You'll be amazed at the sound difference as well, I use a layer of bone on all my bridge plates as a matter of course. Some oversize (bone if possible) bridge pins adjusted to fit and it should play like a dream.

For the crack, just stitch it with mahogany diamonds inside. You can wick some CA in if you want, and leave the rest alone. It's a vintage guitar, let it have some character, as long as it's stable. I love those old store guitars if you want an original sound they can't be beaten I've been after a prewar Stella for a long time.

By the way Dave I once dueted on Rollin' and tumblin' with Geoff Bradford, me on slide while Dave Kelly watched! I use a 1933 00-18, can that man play. For those of you across the pond, Geoff Bradford was a founder member of the English blues movement in the late 50s early 60s, playing with the likes of Cyril Davis and Alexis Korner. When Brian Jones and Keith Richards first formed the Rolling Stones Geoff was invited to join and played with them for a while but left when he thought they were getting too 'Commercial' Smart move Geoff!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

given the slope down to a knife edge on the bridge surface i don't think clamping in situ would be feasible; just nothing there for the clamp to grab. with the bridge removed clamping it to an aluminium or steel plate just narrower than the bridge will serve to keep the body stable while clamps are applied to close the crack. use your glue of choice but hide glue is more period, will penetrate the crak well and gives a more unobtrusive glue line than ar. cs will wick in well also if you chose to use it.

with regard to the bridge plate i can't tell from the photo if it is cracked through as well or whether that is   erosion from string balls. if it is cracked through it is a nasty job replacing it. repair is possible but will be visible upon inspection. using a brass or bone(different tonal issues) plate double stick taped as suggested will provide reinforcement to prevent further damage and is reversible.

as to the back crack if you gently squeeze the body together with a clamp does it close cleanly or does it misalign? if it closes cleanly introduce some glue to the crack and clamp it. when it is set up put your cleats inside; magnets are the easiest way to hold them in place while the glue sets.

if it misaligns often gentle hand pressure is all that is needed to keep it aligned; try again with a bit of gentle hand pressure. if that does the trick glue as before.

if hand pressure won't keep it aligned you will have to get a clamp or two on it using waxed cauls.

    Looks like the bridge plate is also cracked or is it ok? If you can salvage the bridge that is great. Once it is off you can do an invisible repair.
If the bridge won't close with a little clamp pressure you can slot if from the underside and glue in a new piece of ebony. This will make that area solid agian. I have done this a few times on old vintage instruments of high value. Then once the slot is cut and you mate the filler piece , I use epoxy with some fresco and let set. I then true the filler to the bottom of the bridge. Do what fill repairs I need to for visual effect and redrill the holes through the new wood.
   This is an undetectable repair and can save a pretty destroyed bridge if done right.
john hall

Colin/Michael/John,

OK I've had a further explore and the bridge plate is cracked, but at the very back edge of the pin holes. There is a "sliver" of the plate at the back that rocks backwards and forwards (you can see it in the picture). Taking out and replacing the bridgeplate will be a nightmare, and a repair that is visible is not really a big deal for me (to see it you would need a mirror, a light and a really bent neck -human that is!!). I don't really know about pinned bridges as all the guitars I make are pin-less, but I would have thought that it would be possible to remove this sliver, true-up the back edge of the bridgeplate, glue in a new piece at the back level in height with the bridgeplate, glue another thin plate over the bridge footprint (maple with grain parallel to the top, brass, bone?) and drill the pin holes through this. Don't know how much of a fix this would be? A similar sort of thing to the one Frank Ford has done here Overlay. The problem with my guitar is that there is very little bridgeplate behind the pin-holes and the new piece at the back can extend backwards further to give a better footprint for the overlay. At least there aren't any X braces to worry about!!

John thanks for the tips on the bridge fix, I'll see how it looks when the bridge is off. I have a couple of guitars to finish first so won't be doing this for the next few weeks.

I'm not after pristine - just want to get it playable again and reasonably stable. I suspect that this little critter will outlast me - pity I can't have a new bridgeplate fitted Dave White38547.7621759259

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

   There is a good chance that you have hide glue. If that is the case hot water will release it and you can redo the plate actullay easier than you nay thing.