Official Luthiers Forum!

I spent some time today visiting some of web sites from the established luthiers on this forum.  First of all, its inspiring to see the quality of work that I was seeing on these sites...really beautiful...

I'm wondering how long it took some of you to get started?  How long were you building before you started getting commissions?  How many guitars did you give away?  Are you relying on word of mouth now or are you advertising?  doing shows?  How many instruments did you make in 2007? 

Is this a supplement to your income or is it your full time job?

Mitch

bump...

c'mon guys! Some of us new builders want to know this stuff!

Mitch

I scratch built for 3 years prior to accepting a full price commission. I had been doing set-up and fretwork for some time prior.

I also had many years experience in cabinet, small furnishing wood work and French polish furniture finishing to begin with as I started helping my grandfather in his cabinet shop when I was 15.

My wife and I use to make the local fairs and such selling my custom built jewelry boxes and her crochet and home crafts.

I gave away probably 15 guitars over the past seven years.

My first 2 years of building commissions were for local artists I have known for years. Then I made up a sales CD and distributed it via music stores with in a 200 mile radius of me. Two years ago I opened my web site but I had already been building for clients outside of my regional area for a couple years. Still to this day word of mouth sales more than any other means of advertising I do but the web site is a close second.

By the way I have had 5 commissions via this forum and many more quotations that did not come to pass.

I build weekends and evenings as I have a full time engineering career. I build between 5 and 7 commissions a year and still do repair and set-up work but not as much as I use to. this year due to some extreme spring weather and intense day job work load, I completed only 3 commissions I have 3 on the bench and 3 on the schedule.

I had plans to build three show guitars and attend a couple of shows, but work and commissions got in the way. That is one of my goals for this coming year.

MY lutherie does supplement my income some but for the most part I invest the majority of my profit at this point back into the shop in way of tools and supplies

Here is something important to know if thinking about building for profit. It is important to understand that the quotation process is not a one time phone conversation of email event. It is an on going process till the guitar is in process. Learning how to handle this is not always easy. Seldom do prospective clients really know what they want when the contact you. It is part of the job to educate the client and help the put together an instrument that will provide an appropreate instrument.

Also expect to quote 3 or more instruments to every one that you will actually build.

I have been doing woodworking all of my life. I am 51. I have quite a reputation built up because of my woodworking background. I also am a guitar player and I have been involved in organized music programs since the age of 6. People have come to know my skills in music and woodworking.

When I decided to start building guitars, I went to school. The teacher I trained under is one of the most wekk known in the world.  This leap-frogged my career in the luthier business.

This didnt mean that I instantly started getting comissions. I actually built over 10 guitars on my own before I got my first comission. Some of the guitars I gave away, some of them I destroyed. Now I have comissions on a regular basis but I still build guitars that are experimental or guitars that I want to build for myself.

As my reputation as a luthier spreads, so does the amount of comissions. The first comissions were local ones. Now, my Instruments are going all over the USA and I am in negotiations for an international sale.

This is a slow process. You have to earn every comission individually.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

I am not a pro so I can't answer for them, but I can say that I have built 7 guitars now and I feel my skills are nowhere near the level needed to start selling them.  I have given 3 away, and will probably give a couple more that I currently have in my shop away if I can find someone who wants them.  Although the 'carpentry' skills required to build a quality instrument is something that can be acquired in a reasonable amount of time, the 'instrument building' skills required take a very long time and experience to obtain.  The worse thing I feel that I could do is to start selling before I am ready.  You only get one chance at the first impression and I don't want that impression to be negative.

Everybody and every situation is different.

There can be no 'generalized' answers, so I won't bother to even try....

Hi Mario...How about specific answers to the questions I posted from your own experiences?  Between this thread and the one I posted on Luthierforum.com I can draw my own conclusions from the experiences posted.  There is no textbook answer to anything.  But what a resource this is to have a forum with so many talented professionals that can share their experiences and contribute to the overall knowledge base...

If anyone is reluctant to share their information in an open forum like this, please PM me off the forum, as some of you have, and share your thoughts.  I'm soaking up as much input as I can...and the experiences are not as diverse as you might think!

Thanks for posting!

Mitch

I agree with Mario on this and have said so prior. You make your own so to speak "bones". That comes with a bunch of builds and getting known probably local first. Thing is that saying build guitars and luthier isn't on own going to do it. You have to show you can put out a good product. You make your own brand on skill.   Shows will help, as will other things, but before that, better have it down, because those there doing it and making it work do have it down.

There just isn't a magic answer or pill. If think can do it, do it, but better be right. Lot of folks get started and personally think right doing repairs first. You get known then as someone if doing good work that you have what it takes.

Each person will have to answer question as to when or if supplement income or go into full scale. No one here can tell you that.

Hey Mitch,
It took me about 5 years to get to the point where I was entirely
comfortable selling my guitars and backing them with a warranty. I
started with no experience in woodworking. 3 of those years I pursued
lutherie like it was a second job and for a full 1.5 years I was building
guitars full-time (without income ) even before I started selling them.
I just "opened my doors" about 2 months ago.

I intentionally went under the radar for a couple years and just asked the
folks I built guitars for to give me feedback. I built all my "prototype"
guitars for folks at material cost. I spent a tremendous amount of time
and effort on design and tone - after each guitar, I would evaluate what
needed to be improved and then made certain those mistakes would
never be repeated. It was a slightly different approach than some people
take but by my 10th guitar, the quality was equal to most pro-builders.

As one person mentioned, you don't want to start getting your name out
until you are where you need to be as a builder because this who
business is based on reputation.    To succeed as a builder you will need a
great sounding instrument with an attractive and unique design. And
then you MUST be prepared to sacrifice financially for about 5 years to get
your name out there and raise prices to what will allow you to live a
modest lifestyle.

All the best,
Simon Fay

thanks for the great input guys - I feel compelled to clear something up...I'm not looking for a short cut or a magic pill to business success. 

This is something that has my biggest passions, music and woodworking, swirling together.  I see some very impressive builders on this site and I am curious what road you all travelled to get where you are.  Some are advocating repair as a route, others just started building and over time, got to where they are now.  I'm just curious how many took which path and what that path looks like.  I'm not quitting my day job any time soon. 

Good input though...thanks for sharing!

Mitch

Guys I'm not trying to put words into Mitch's mouth...but I don't think he's trying to get you to tell HIM what to do, but rather trying to get you to tell him what YOU did.

In other words, what's your story, how did you get to where you are, and is where you are where you want to be?

Grumpy...you are, of course, absolutely right in saying there are no generalized answers. But he's asking "How did you go from being just some guy named Mario Proulx, to THE Mario Proulx who builds world-class guitars? It's not a bizarre, far-fetched question, and one I bet a lot of people would like to hear about from a lot of the well-known names on this board.

(I mean, for me personally, I have somewhat of a fascination with Rick Turner. The guy's a legend in the business. I'd love to hear his story.)

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Humm??????? I did not read where Mitch asked for a magic pill to make it work. Instead I took that he wanted to hear about our experiences and the generalized steps we took to get there.

Mario is right each of us got where we are by means of different paths, and what may have worked for one may not work for the other.

But like I said I read that Mitch was interested in the varied ways we got here. Not that he was looking for a road map to follow.

But one I think may get Mitch some more information to ponder.

When I decided to build for profit I made the choice to pretty much build only to order. Meaning rather than building to basic specifications or models and sell the work off the shelf. I decided to build for the most part to client specifications only. This decision probably restricted my income to some degree as a prospective client would not be able to walk into my shop and pull a guitar off the rack and buy it. But for me this is how I wanted to build. having each build be different in appearance and specifications.

For some one else it might work better to build a series of standardized models and sell completed guitars as their main point of sales and or not take custom spec orders.

So what is everyone's opinion on this?

OK, looking for what folka in it full time and making it. I think most if not all doing this is hard work, lots of shop time, willing to work for not a lot of
money and loving it all of that enough to stick with it.


Michael went about it doing custom order, others like shops I worked at have models and then also do the one off custom builds (and knowing how to do all of those varied and at times wierd request)Which may cause other problems like re jig and tool up. Others like me had income from retirments so didn't have to fully depend on builds for income and living (the best option if can) Some went go to schools and learn as much as can from the schools,they then can try apprenticships as others have have and then go on own but beware the school will give you the basics, the other takes long work and if get to a shop better have thick skin at times, as you will learn the nuance of the other builders and what it takes to run a shop. Can just say after some builds or time repairing and learning ok, going in it full blast now.

What ever one does and the way they go about it is what they are comfortable doing and have the experience, money and other factors to do. But nothing, nothing will matter if don't take the time to learn to build right and well, and ability to compete with those others out there also doing it. That is done by just hard work and dedication, and time.

As is often noted here many ways to go at a way to build or do a function of it, so is the way to get from point A to point B and going full time. There are the basics that have to be done first.

OK, looking for what folka in it full time and making it. I think most if not all doing this is hard work, lots of shop time, willing to work for not a lot of
money and loving it all of that enough to stick with it.


Michael went about it doing custom order, others like shops I worked at have models and then also do the one off custom builds (and knowing how to do all of those varied and at times wierd request)Which may cause other problems like re jig and tool up. Others like me had income from retirments so didn't have to fully depend on builds for income and living (the best option if can) Some went go to schools and learn as much as can from the schools,they then can try apprenticships as others have have and then go on own but beware the school will give you the basics, the other takes long work and if get to a shop better have thick skin at times, as you will learn the nuance of the other builders and what it takes to run a shop. Can just say after some builds or time repairing and learning ok, going in it full blast now.

What ever one does and the way they go about it is what they are comfortable doing and have the experience, money and other factors to do. But nothing, nothing will matter if don't take the time to learn to build right and well, and ability to compete with those others out there also doing it. That is done by just hard work and dedication, and time.

As is often noted here many ways to go at a way to build or do a function of it, so is the way to get from point A to point B and going full time. There are the basics that have to be done first though.

In my case school(and for me and others I have met that did school, it is liken to karate, you learn the basics and enough to get your butt kicked also) I then worked in a couple of shops after building about 13 guitars. I had to take it on the chin there also many times. I now am setting up my own shop. Will see where go from there, but know will take time, disappointment at times, hard work and through it all loving it enough to hang with it. If you don't have the fire in the belly for the long haul one won't get there. So then just build for the enjoyment of producing a good instrumnent.

There are some really good builders here who keep what they make and that is good enough for them now and maybe forever. Good for them. There are the same that may go full time when it is right for them. They will go at it varied ways. Take 10 builders going out into the business and they will probably do it 9 or 10 ways

how long for edit. I swear when looking at the review didn't look that bad. Must just be tired, and distracted by the 4 grandkids staying with me

I've been building for almost 12 years now. Started taking commissions
WAY too early. About 4 years in.

My advice... Do it for a hobby, do it for the fun, not for a business. And
if you feel compelled to sell your instruments, don't sell any you made
within the first 3-5 years. At this stage you may think what your making
is good, but years down the line you most likely won't feel the same
about this instruments.

This may sound totally pessimistic, but once you start taking money
from people things start to change drastically, and I've heard from dozens
of pro's that once it became a business it was not as enjoyable.

If I had to start all over again I would not take custom orders at all. I'd
only build what sparked my interest and passion, and sell it in the end if
it was up to snuff (but again you might not even know what that is if
you've just started). Customers are the best, and worst part.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

This is the same thing as being an artist. It takes lots of time, and good work, and a NAME. Name recognition is the key element. People then buy off the name, expecting a good product. That takes time and money and you have to hit it right. As an artist, I lived off of 50% repeat customers, and 50% new, for a while then the market can sag. I imagine Guitar Lutheri is about the same. I could see this when I got in.

I am building only good sounding guitars, that is, the top will be voiced very well to my ear, or it gets redone! Fit and finnish is second with me, but in retail it must be near equal to voicing it seems.

 

 

Somehow I forgot to mention in the first post that I am not dependent on the lutherie business to make a living. Oficially, I am retired. I put in my time working for others and for myself in other business ventures.

I love woodworking, but more than that I love music and quality instruments.

One thing that hasnt been discussed here is the amount of money it takes to get the necessary equipment and tools to make guitars on a consistant basis and in enough of a volume to make any money at it. It is HUGE. I bought most of my equipment over a number of years, and alot of it I bought second hand. even with this, the investment is large. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER think about going into this business on borrowed money. It wont work!!

There are so many people out there building kits, and putting together "Guitar like objects" that it forces you to have to build your reputation one guitar at a time. I have made more mistakes in building than most. I am getting pretty good at fixing my mistakes and making it look like a "feature".

 

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H

[QUOTE=fmorelli] Very interesting comments, John.

Filippo[/QUOTE]

Sorry. They are probably not the happy cheery, idealistic things people
want to image in this business but it is reality. I've met more amateur
builders than I care to mention who think that life will be the perfect little
cocoon of peacefulness whilst they sit a bench with chisel in hand content
with the world around them carving away on a guitar they are building for
the perfect customer who is patently waiting without a quip. While these
moments do happen, 99% of the time it's just a lot of long hard hours, for
very little pay.

Don't get me wrong I still love guitars, and I encourage people to build
and do it because they enjoy it, but the notion that some have that the
pinnacle of lutherie is building custom guitars for people....well that's just
not true for everyone.

Hope I didn't rain on someone's parade by my overly honest replies.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

John, I think what you've said makes a whole lot of sense. And I'm sure your time frames that you mentioned could be altered a bit depending on the individual, but I do think it's probably a pretty good ballpark and for some, it may even need to have a few years added on while others, a year or two taken off...

I think what you've said is exactly what you say it is...An Honest reply. And you shouldn't appologize for giving people your honest opinion. I for one appreciate learning from other's experiences and I could see how selling my 10th or 11th guitar may end up being something that I could regret in the future, so I think that was a good point that you made. I'm sure most of us here look back on their earlier guitars and realize just how much they have learned and improved since then and I think that's the point that you're making and you've generalized a timeframe to where you personally think that your skill at building was good enough to actually start selling what you consider a quality insturment.

I've also heard several times from other builders that their most enjoyment is when they can actually build a guitar the way they want to and not have to work to a custom order. While I think that this would probably lose a lot of builders orders if they didn't offer custom orders, I think that it makes sense what you're saying (if I understand correctly), in that you would enjoy it more because you're building what you want to build, with no limitations on your end, and customers would be buying a guitar that they have already seen and like and possibly already played and heard, which would eliminate a lot of post sale changes, returns, etc...

On the flip side, some people may actually enjoy building custom guitars because they like to take on the challenge of building exactly what the customer wants or like to build something completly new each time, and you're not saying that nobody should start selling their 10th guitar or that they shouldn't take custom orders, but that your pesonal opinion is that if you could do it differently, that's how YOU would do it, and I for one, appreciate your honestly and your opinion. It's what this thread is all about.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

After reading my post, to me it seems to come across like I'm putting words in your mouth John, so I apologize for that and please correct me where ever I may be wrong.

_________________
Thanks,
Blain

http://www.ullrichguitar.com

"89.67% of all statistics are made up on the spot."

Lots of good information in these posts.  Glad I started this thread

I think what is being said here is the same thing you can read on any forum where hobbies or artistic creations can start to mingle with money.  John said it best - when money gets involved, things change drastically.  That is true in guitars, furniture, software...anything that you decide you are going to custom tailor to another persons wishes. 

You guys are good technicians, and can coax beautiful sounds and great finishes out of mere wood...that's a great skill.  Some folks can do that and at the same time, manage business and people and money and schedule and time.  Some can, but don't want to anymore.  The romance leaves once any hobby becomes THE paycheck.  If you read the book, The E-Myth, you can get a much better idea of what I'm stumbling over here...

I do side work building cabinets and furniture, all custom, all on someone else's whim,  and I work out of a friend's cabinet shop on occasion.  That is all he does and he is a master craftsman.  In his words, "after 20 years, its just work." 

I don't have a problem dealing with the business side of things, but it sure is nicer to just go into the shop and create something that you have total freedom of expression on - bend that table leg this way and that, veneer where I want to, put flutes or reeds in the leg if i so desire...The reality of it is that I can't do that kind of work for "fun" with the money I have invested in tools, shop space, etc. -

I also teach part time at a woodworking school and in every single class there is a guy who is picking up a router for the first time, ready to retire on the jewelry boxes he is about to make.  You hate to be the guy that bursts his bubble, but honesty is the best policy. No delusions of grandeur here...

That being said, I loved building that first guitar.  I have a loooooooong road in front of me building those skills and I have no illusions about the time and money I will happily put into this passion.  I do think somewhere down the line somebody is going to buy some of my stuff, if they are happy with it and if I feel its worthy.  I don't see a problem supplementing the income with a couple guitar sales down the line, once I feel they are worth it. 

Thanks everyone for your valuable input. 

...and John - LOVED the DVD's man - great stuff...

Mitch

 

John, I agree with everything that you've said here. I've been back and forth in my own attitude over the forty years overall I've been building and the twenty five (including a couple of well known clients) doing custom guitars for people.

I think the attraction in making guitars full time depends on several things;  The kind of job that you would be giving up, your situation regarding children and dependants, and your spouse's employment most importantly regarding medical insurance coverage.       

Thirty years ago, I was fortunate to get a job working for a large Museum doing exhibits (sculpting, molding, casting, dioramas etc. etc.) which was another major interest of mine and was a perfect blend with my instrument making. I also learned a lot from some of the very skilled machinists and model makers who worked there as well. Thus the long hours and unrelenting work of making guitars remained strictly as a sideline though I can easily see that someone with less interesting or stimulating employment would see it as the promised land.

At this point nearing retirement I'm emerging again from many years of laying low (the worst thing is to stimulate a demand that you can't fulfill). 

I'm still not much interested in commisions or custom work for all the reasons you mentioned and one that you did not...... customers don't always really know what they want and following their lead can be perilous.

I would like to create a situaton in which I can make what interests me, and have others represent it to the buying public (for a commision of course) and serve as a buffer between myself and the stress and problems of customer relations. Whether this is possible in a shrinking and extremely competitive market is the question that remains to be answered. At this point I'm ambivalent as what you mentioned about the enjoyment lessening as business factors increase is entirely true.    

"I would like to create a situaton in which I can make what interests me, and have others represent it to the buying public (for a commision of course) and serve as a buffer between myself and the stress and problems of customer relations. Whether this is possible in a shrinking and extremely competitive market is the question that remains to be answered."

I think this is a common theme.  It seems that we all just want to make the instruments, and let the public deal with whether they want them or not (not to put words in anyone's mouth, another common theme on this thread). 

I don't know why you can't do this, as long as you realize that it probably won't sell for as much as a custom job would.  You can absolutely just make what you want to, and sell what you want to, especially if its not your primary income. 

Mitch