Official Luthiers Forum!

John, I agree with everything that you've said here. I've been back and forth in my own attitude over the forty years overall I've been building and the twenty five (including a couple of well known clients) doing custom guitars for people.

I think the attraction in making guitars full time depends on several things;  The kind of job that you would be giving up, your situation regarding children and dependants, and your spouse's employment most importantly regarding medical insurance coverage.       

Thirty years ago, I was fortunate to get a job working for a large Museum doing exhibits (sculpting, molding, casting, dioramas etc. etc.) which was another major interest of mine and was a perfect blend with my instrument making. I also learned a lot from some of the very skilled machinists and model makers who worked there as well. Thus the long hours and unrelenting work of making guitars remained strictly as a sideline though I can easily see that someone with less interesting or stimulating employment would see it as the promised land.

At this point nearing retirement I'm emerging again from many years of laying low (the worst thing is to stimulate a demand that you can't fulfill). 

I'm still not much interested in commisions or custom work for all the reasons you mentioned and one that you did not...... customers don't always really know what they want and following their lead can be perilous.

I would like to create a situaton in which I can make what interests me, and have others represent it to the buying public (for a commision of course) and serve as a buffer between myself and the stress and problems of customer relations. Whether this is possible in a shrinking and extremely competitive market is the question that remains to be answered. At this point I'm ambivalent as what you mentioned about the enjoyment lessening as business factors increase is entirely true.    

"I would like to create a situaton in which I can make what interests me, and have others represent it to the buying public (for a commision of course) and serve as a buffer between myself and the stress and problems of customer relations. Whether this is possible in a shrinking and extremely competitive market is the question that remains to be answered."

I think this is a common theme.  It seems that we all just want to make the instruments, and let the public deal with whether they want them or not (not to put words in anyone's mouth, another common theme on this thread). 

I don't know why you can't do this, as long as you realize that it probably won't sell for as much as a custom job would.  You can absolutely just make what you want to, and sell what you want to, especially if its not your primary income. 

Mitch

A couple comments/questions/observations if I may please.

David's comment on the importance of health care insurance is a very prudent comment.  For our UK, French, Canadian, and Israeli bros and sisters this is not an issue.  But for stateside builders who are considering Lutherie this is a HUGE consideration.

In Michael Moore's most recent film "Sicko" a guy is given the choice, since he can't afford both options, of which of two fingers to have reattached - one will cost $12K and the middle finger will cost $60K to reattach......

Moving on to the more upbeat considerations - it would be interesting to pole the membership, although it would be skewed by the nature of this forum, as to how many folks here use Lutherie as their sole source of income AND benefits including health care.  Conversely how many builders who sell their guitars are supplementing other sources of income and benefits with Lutherie activities.....

I wanted to bring up attending guitar shows as well for two reasons.  First - attending shows like Montreal, Healdsburg, GAL, and ASIA is a great way to see how your chops stack up against the competition.  It will also give you a feel for the market as well when you see what people are buying and why.

One of my favorites reads that lives in my "study".... is the Healdsburg Guitar Festival program.  For each Luthier there is a picture and a short write up on these individuals.  Many of these folks participate here on the OLF.

The kinds of things that are listed in the write-ups are things like years of experience, who they may have studied with, and what I like to call a builders unfair competitive advantages or what their individual vision for guitar building may be.

With this said we have not touched on the idea or the value of studying with a master Luthier AND, this is the my real question here, the value of having these credentials to list when pursuing your own career in Lutherie.

Surely there is great value in learning from a master Luthier but what I am wondering is this:  I see that many in the HGF program who have studied with Somogyi, Fox and others prominently indicate so in their marketing materials.  Many who have not list nothing.

So my question is beyond the unquestionable value of learning from the masters do credentials in Lutherie sell guitars?

Lastly - having met a fair number of you now I find that some of the demographics have a number of things in common.  First, I have yet to meet a builder that was much more than 10 years older or younger then I am (51).  Many if not most of you were/are wood workers in some form prior to pursuing your interest in Lutherie - hence the table saws.......  And everyone has seemingly had a life long love affair with guitars.  It is this last demographic or more accurately, common and life long interest in guitars that interests me most for the sake of this thread.

Do you think that something that we are passionate about may cloud the realities of the odds that Lutherie is something that as a profession will make us truly happy?  Of course, when you consider this question YMMV and we are back to what Mario and Stan offered in that it is different for everyone.

Personally, if I consider what John shared, what I have seen others who took the plunge go through, the realities of the economics of this business AND strip the rose colored glasses tinted with my passion for guitars away, if this is possible, the romance fades a bit........  And it is this passion for and the romance of guitar building for me that I never, never want to lose. 

Great thread Mitch!

I think this is a common theme.  It seems that we all just want to make
the instruments, and let the public deal with whether they want them or
not

I may be a common theme, but it is not universal! I adore my clients, have become great friends with most of them, and I cherish the customer/luthier relationship. No way in hell would I wish to disconnect myself from them. But whatdoIknow....

Do I always get to build what I want? No. Rarely, in fact. But because of this, I am pushed forward all the time, pushed in directions I'd have never gone toward on my own.

When we step away from our comfort zones, we often find new levels of comfort.

Grumpy, is that last line an original? I may "borrow" that from you. Quite prophetic.

-j.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

[QUOTE=grumpy] Do I always get to build what I want? No. Rarely, in fact. But because of this, I am pushed <span style="font-style: italic;"><span style="font-weight: bold;">forward</span></span> all the time, pushed in directions I'd have never gone toward on my own.When we step away from our comfort zones, we often find new levels of comfort.
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_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

j, I didn't borrow that anywhere, just made it up

Bill, I have no idea what I wouldn't have done, and what I'd be doing. How can we know how we'd evolved, had we not?
  Actually, I'd likely be back to working for The Man.... How do you grow a business if you don't listen to your clients?

 How do you grow a business if you don't listen to your clients?

You don't.  You just make a set number of units and hope they sell.  And maybe incorporate some feedback into the next batch.  its not a custom model, its a manufacturing/retail model.  I personally would not do this, but I don't see why some who lean in that direction couldn't do it...

Its not as absolute and cut and dried as it sounds in a forum post.  As you said earlier, everyone will have their own situation...

Mitch

Hey Mitch

Unless you're a small shop with name recognition, I don't see that model
working in the world of guitars. It works for Santa Cruz Guitars, but for
Orr Guitars?

another take on pushing yourself forward, and being pushed forward.

I'm not building any of my guitars anymore (except ones for myself) but
I'm building some ukes. I'm not taking any custom orders, just selling
what I finish. The ukes sell almost instantly after I finish them, for almost
as much money as a lot custom guitars go for, and I get to decide what I
make. And since I've been doing this I've been trying out some things no
customer would have ever thought to tell me to try. I get plenty of good,
great, and not so great ideas from my own skull. No need for a customer
to push me somewhere if I can find that place and places beyond it on my
own.

Different people have different process'. I motivate myself, and do good
and reinventing my own designs when needed and copying others where
needed as well. I've grown my uke business tremendously, and I don't
have customers I deal with directly anymore. That's not to say I don't
listen to the people who own my ukes, because I've read many a
comments about them, and received many e-mails. I pay attention to
them, I just don't draw inspiration from them. Of course there is nothing
wrong with doing it the direct opposite either, and it's wonderful some
people do.

_________________
John Mayes
http://www.mayesluthier.com

Let me offer a different perspective.
If I had it to do all over again I would take all the money I have put into materials, classes, tools, etc. and invest it. If I were to at least keep up with the stock market history of the last 30 years I would retire a multi millionaire.
No really, I have approached the lutherie business from a different angle. I went into the teaching side of it. I get real satisfaction from helping others realize that lifelong dream of building their own guitar. It is a magical moment when the strings go on the instrument and the smile of satisfaction comes across the face. This really is priceless. I also find that it keeps me passionate about my own building.
For those of us that are driven to the arts and that desire to create then there is almost nothing that will discourage one from at least trying to succeed. What's the worst that can happen? If it doesn't work out then at least when you get older you can say I gave it at shot. For this type of individual I wish you success and happiness on the journey.   

[QUOTE=mgcain]I'm wondering how long it took some of you to get started? 

Started in 99, built a Martin kit. Gave it away recently, but it was a very nice guitar with nitro finish.

How long were you building before you started getting commissions?

My second guitar was a commission.  I requested that guitar be returned and it was.  That guitar's neck was reshaped and the entire guitar was refinished in nitro.

How many guitars did you give away? 

Two now, but I have plans to give two more away this year.

Are you relying on word of mouth now or are you advertising?

Yes, mainly word of mouth and I have a website.

doing shows? 

None so far.

How many instruments did you make in 2007?

One completed but it was started several years back.

Is this a supplement to your income or is it your full time job?

Full time, but as you might guess, I do supplement my luthier income with other work.  It's a bummer but a reality and ..... worth it. 

Sometimes it feels a little bit like Starry Starry Night and how Vincent must have felt.

Mitch

answers by Jiminy

[/QUOTE]

 

I saw this posted on my thread in another forum...another view from William Cumpiano...

http://www.instrumentmakers.net/LLcom/home/pedagog.html

My goal with this thread was to get a perspective on how some of you feel about selling your guitars, how long it took you to become recognized as a guitar maker, whether you sell them or not, and how you approach the business side of the art we love...This has been a very interesting dialog.

Thank you all so much for sharing...

Mitch

    I started out as a hobby. Gave away about 14 of my firsts. When I was approached to do a commission I had about 3 years in. Everything worked out but I did under sell my self and just broke even.
   Once I realized that this can be a business and not a hobby , that is how I started to treat it. I never looked back . I stated to take more classes and applied technical courses.
   Educate yourself the best you can . I am still learning and will hopefully continue to do so. I am never totally satisfied but I think we are often our own worse critics.
   john hall
blues creek guitars

I’m in the same spot as I suspect many are on this forum.  I don’t make my living doing this but I do run it as a little business.  Again, like many here, I’m in the mid 20’s as far as number of builds, and I’ve probably sold 16.   I kept some, sold a few at cost of materials and a few at slightly over cost, (All locally to people I knew), before taking a crack at the real world.  I did take the Charles Fox course after I’d built several and that was an enormous step forward and definitely adds credibility.
What little I’ve learned so far is that your instruments have to pass muster with professional retailers, builders, and musicians, before you can enter the real world.  They will give you an honest opinion as to whether you are ready or not.   It’s also nice to have a few that are several years out and still staying together.  
I’m lucky enough to have a great relationship with a well-established boutique acoustic store in Minneapolis and they have been incredibly supportive.  They have given my stuff credibility and through them it has gotten into the hands of some professional players.  So far I have really enjoyed working with clients and have met some great pro players that have given me a lot of insight as to what they want in an instrument.  
This is coming from someone who is still very much a beginner in this field, so take it for what it’s worth.  It’s very easy to become quite enamored with yourself after you’ve built 10 or 12 instruments that actually sound pretty good and get rave reviews from local non-professional types.  I’m finding that it’s a lot like my career as a surgeon.  You are very cocky as a chief resident and when starting practice, but you are very quickly cut down to size by complications you never even knew could happen.  Stay humble.
Terry

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Stay humble.

Great advice Terry.   

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com