Official Luthiers Forum!

I have to say, I am with Mario on this one.  For every cut I do on my band saw, I probably do 20 on my table saw.  There are only a few things that I do on my band saw that just can't be done on a table saw at all.  All of those could be done with a jigsaw, coping saw, or zip bit in a laminate trimmer.  Heck, I use my router station more than I use my band saw.  I am like Kim, with some imagination there are an awful lot of things that can be done on a table saw other than ripping and cross cutting.

That being said, a Rikon 14" is at the top of my tool list but that is for re-sawing and it will probably be used as a dedicate re-saw tool.

I am surprised that safety issues have not been brought up here......

So.... I did some checking and the injury data for table saws is very alarming.  Far more so then for band saws.

The Power Tool Institute using Consumer Product Safety Commission data estimates that one out of every 100 table saws will be involved in a serious injury every year........  That is 1% people - annually!  Would we accept an annual injury rate of 1% from the food we eat, flights we take, cars we drive, toys we just bought our kids for Christmas.......

This data indicates that the chances are that for every 100 OLFers who use table saws one of you will have a serious injury accident in 2008........

BE CAREFUL!!!!!!

It obviously all boils down to a matter of style.

I have both. If you showed up at my door and said "one of them has to go, I'm taking it now, you choose", I'd keep the bandsaw.

It's just a matter of style.

_________________
Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

Hesh,

does that chart take into account meat cutters that have lost thumbs on bandsaws?  I know a few of them...

I think that it depends on what you are making as to what tools you need to buy. I have both, and I use both - but I don't try to rip on  bandsaw and I don't use my table saw for a shaper.  Each has their own uses.  Pick up this month's fine woodworking and you will see an excellent article using a bandsaw to make a piece of wood safer to use before it hits the table saw.  Of course, they also use a jointer and a planer as well. 

If I were to buy another table saw today, I'd buy a Saw-Stop.  This i probably because I've already lost a digit and plan on keeping the other 9 1/3 I have left, although fractions have been easier now. 

If I am building furniture, or doing general woodworking, I couldn't be as efficient without my table saw.  I could get it done on a bandsaw, but it would take forever and I'd have a lot of handwork. 

I wouldn't build this without my table saw...

Yeah, gimme a Saw-Stop any day.

Some day, when I hit the lottery, the first thing I buy will be a Saw-Stop.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Mitch my friend I don't know if meat cutters were considered - or the Sopranos for that matter.......

Here is another interesting link that I found while checking this out:  http://www.sawstop.com/why-sawstop-overview.htm

Mitch beautiful table!!!!!

[QUOTE=Hesh]Mitch beautiful table!
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, it sure has a lot of style....is that actually a blanket chest? Gorgeous wood, great job.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Hesh's Casualty chart illustrates the reason why I don't use a table saw.

I spent last year researching saws and bought the best bandsaw I could afford. The use of push sticks, face protection and having general lucidity may contribute to years of safe bandsaw use.

I will also be resawing less capacity than the bandsaw's recommendations- if it means 3-5 piece backs, so be it.

Even though the radial arms saw stats are low compared to the others, bear in mind that they are the least commonly used, which means the stats are very high for RAS use. I had one in my workshop for a few months and even observing stringent safetly measures, came VERY close to being knocked out by flying wood, etc.

Table saws put the fear of God into me. I watched one of my woodworking pals rip some cherry for me, and my heart was in my mouth when I saw how close his fingers were to the spinning blade. Great, smooth results as already pointed out in this thread, but.........

When I first set up my shop several years ago, it was for furniture.  The table saw was the cornerstone.  But now, I use it for cutting braces and ripping the wavy edges off backs and sides using a carriage, and a few other small things.  I could do either with the bandsaw and thickness sander, or a router with a pattern bit and straight edge, or jig.  The mainstays in the shop are now the bandsaw, thickness sander, and router table, and I would give up my tablesaw before I would give up either of them.  It's just what I have got used to.  There are many ways to "skin a cat", and I think you just get used to using what you have.  I do love my tablesaw, though, and would never want to get rid of it.

If I had the space, I'd buy a tablesaw in a heartbeat. Fact is, I don't, and I wouldn't want to trade away the bandsaw for anything. Occasional resaw jobs (it's part of the fun for me, I realize it's not particularly cost-effective in a lot of cases), cutting curves (I also build electrics, and did so without a bandsaw for years, but I'm not going back. No sir.), rough-cutting various bits of neck, etc. (can't cut up boards into acoustic neck blank units with heel on a tablesaw, which is what I did yesterday).

For a lot of other work, like jointing, I have hand planes, routers (table and free-hand) and my thickness sander.

Injuries are usually caused by operator stupidity, end of discussion....yep, a table saw can be mighty dangerous when used by a moron, and so can a miter saw when some rocket scientist jams up the blade guard thinking it will make things better....

Even though many people are aware of what a push stick is, they still don't use one...I find that even a fairly new pencil (i.e. long) with the eraser against the wood edge is a decent push stick in a pinch...if you ever deal with a person trying to cajole you into working faster at the expense of safety, then they are a dangerous idiot and should be treated as such (i.e. with a high degree of contempt)...

On the flip side of the coin it HAS to be realized that most all woodworking tools are dangerous, and using them is just part of the trade...I've gotten many comments about how close my fingers get to blades when dealing with  tiny pieces of wood as a trim carpenter, again that is part of the job when one is doing detailed quality work...the following statement will probably get a deal of ridicule but I stand behind it: the 'trick' to dealing with fine cuts is knowing when to let the piece of wood go and let it fly into the air and get damaged...the piece of wood CAN be replaced, your fingers (etc.) most likely can't...

To the subject at hand I will have to agree with those that consider the table saw as the essential tool when put up against a band saw.  I don't have a jointer, but I find that making a final careful rip taking a mere 1/32" or less off works as a great substitute...

I have to disagree with the concept of a thin kerf blade being the best...sure its great for rough rips and such, but NOTHING beats a thick plate for accurate cuts....all blades will deflect a bit because of friction and such, and the thinner the plate of the blade the worse the deflection will be...an obvious (and perhaps not directly applicable) proof would be to compare the results of trying to make a fine tune adjustment to a miter using a 12" saw...try making said cut with a thin kerf blade as compared to using a Freud LU85 Ultimate Cut-off blade....the thin kerf blade will usually deflect away and made a good cut impossible, but a sharp thick plate will usually stay stable and achieve the desired result with is a nice clean, straight miter....

Very informative thread!

I do not have much room for a table saw - I would need a bench type saw.  Does anyone have a recommendation for a particular saw?  Also, I was once told a Table saw is only as good as its fence.

Thx!

Glenn

have bandsaw, but if had to make choice, would rather make "floor" space which can be a premium for the tablesaw.

I can use hand tools or jig saw for the curves. Thing is can get use a hand saw, or what I have also a Dremel or other brand of jig saw on counter top for most of the small thin cuts (tops and backs, braces) on it. They come in 16 to 20 inch. Cheaper also. I don't and probably won't resaw. If wanted could get a small counter top band saw. Note I am talking floor space here. That can be of a lot of value in a small shop area. I can move and store the counter stuff.

tail and neck blocks. Make a jig and do them on a sander.

I was hoping this would go to saw recomendations. For space, as that's the predicament that some of us are in, I was looking at a contractors saw(Delta 36-981) or the Bosch 4100, because of porability.....they're on wheels and not as heavy as a cabnet saws. I like the cast iron table on the Delta. The Bosch looks like aluminum. I would have never considered the Bosch but a contactor the we do business with, raved about it... and he builds several houses a year.
On the band saw side, I've been told just to get a good fence and have a small jointer to square up material. Looks like a Kreg fence is about $125 dollars or so. Small jointer from Grizzly is about $243.
I've had a Delta Bench Saw w/stand(mod. 36-540) that was given to me and it cuts good, but, the fence is really bad. These are cheap saws with what looks like plastic or fiberglass tables. It's not worth putting a better fence on this. I have been using a circular saw and straight edge for sheet goods as its a lot more accurate. If anyone has one of these Delta 36-540 or the like, what did you do to make it more accurate? Heck, if I can forgo buying a TS I'd save some money!
Dave

I'll opine that for most luthiers work the small bench top table saws are more than adequate. I have one of the Porter Cable saws, mounted on a stand which only cost $300 on sale. With a thin kerf blade it is plenty powerful enough to do all of the luthier tasks I need it for. Sure it's too small and light for working large pieces of wood, but that's not a factor for making guitars.

Personally I use it a little more than my bandsaw but I wouldn't want to be without either.

_________________
David White, Toronto

"All my favourite singers can't sing."

I only own a table saw, and it is the third one I have owned in the past 5 years. My advice: whichever you purchase, get a good one, as in costing at least $500, preferably more. I use a friends band saw or sneak in to the local community college wood shop and use theirs.

I've found the DeWalt DW744 saw to be the best portable saw out there because of its fence system...I am a rather passionate DeWalt hater, but I have to admit this tool is a winner...on the flip side of the coin the cost is rather steep considering for a few bucks more you can get a full size Delta, but that's not a model that can be moved by one person with any ease...

I made mistake and meant a scroll saw. I have cut a bunch of tops, backs. brace etc. on my Dremel I bought online for $99.00. Most of what use a bandsaw for in this work is fairly thin and can be done with right blades (also cheaper, faster to change than bandsaws)I can store it in counter when not using it. Just takes some planning.

I was talking about "floor space" rather than full shop space, which are very different. One may have limited floosr space, but shop space with walls, cabinets etc and good organization get a lot of stuff in.

I use a 12" disc sander for neck and tail block shaping. I use this tool for many things.

Shop safety is a big issue, but I respect all of the tools and make sure when using particular ones, I am fully focused. I try not to fear them, but do have a certain amount to keep my respect for them up there. This will I know make me in the very large minority, but if needed floor space, would use bench top band or scroll saw and get a shaper. One can do so much on them. At one shop was at, used shaper and tablesaw more or at least as much as the bandsaw. All the brace work done on tablesaw and shaper (can use router table for this also (which can store away)

I know Hesh and others build inside their living area and that makes them use things much different than if in a garage, or detached building. They have to plan things out different do to dust, chips and other thing tools can make mess with. But reading his post, he has good organization and planning when doing certain things and store many of his tools and jigs. The smaller the full shop, means a lot less floor space.

I have less than 400 sq. ft of floor space. I am building and doing more storage area and work benchs to free up floor space. That way I can use maybe tablesaw and bandsaw, but will use a benchtop bandsaw if choice has to be made for a decent tablesaw.

I am now concentrating on a "thickness" sander, and instead of getting a bigger one like had, will get one I can easily store or push out of way, or make benchtop.

As stated for me anyway floor space is the premium and will use benchtop things can to make way for better and more used floor tools

i just received the 2008 grizzly catalog a few days ago and noticed they are now making a 10" version of the 12" tablesaw they released earlier this year. a little spendy and its not going to fit in a small shop, but grizzly rocks. i love my 1023slx. if i were doing it again i would probably nab this saw.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Heavy-Duty-Cabinet-Table- Saw-With-Riving-Knife/G0651

 

 

_________________
sweat the small stuff.

A couple of thoughts on table saws:

For slotting fingerboards and small jobs (ripping bindings, bridge blanks and the like), an older 8" table saw can be a good bet- in Canada this would be an older Beaver or General with a motor hanging off the back. With the table extensions removed, these have a fairly small 'footprint'. I've used a few 'self-powered' 10" saws and haven't been impressed with any.

I don't consider using a table saw without an outfeed table to be a safe way of cutting up large pieces of lumber. I've read comments about cutting up sheets of plywood with a table saw; PLEASE use a Skilsaw and a cutting guide to rough-cut your sheet goods, or jury-rig an outfeed table for your table saw.

For working without a tablesaw, you can get a long way with sawhorses, a Skilsaw, a router table, and some cutting guides and clamp-on straightedges.

Cheers
John

(2 tablesaws, 3 bandsaws, etc etc)

I just recently got a table saw for my shop, it's one of the Hammond Glider saws (moving table). I needed to cut a bunch of stock to a 20" length consistently and doing it on the Fadal wasn't time-economical.

That said, until a couple weeks ago is to was just the bandsaw, the Fadal, and my jointer. I have a hand saw I use for cutting chunks off boards, only takes me about 20 maybe 30 seconds to take a length off of a piece of 1x8" walnut and I haven't really had any other need for a table saw.

I wonder what the workflow differences are considering I make a lot of guitar parts here?

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

First, let me say, take this neck billet to your table saw and cut me out a couple of necks.  Pretty hard to do.

Take that same neck billet to a bandsaw with a 1/4 inch general purpose blade $10.90, and you can do it all day long on a 14".

Now, take a nice billet of adirondack spruce to the band saw and saw out braces, yeah, it'll do it, no problem.

Take that same billet of addy to a table saw with a diablo 7 1/4 24T and a zero clearance insert, well, it was made for this.

Take a nice plank of genuine mahogany 2 inches by 10 inches by ten feet.  Rip that on your table saw with a ten inch carbide blade for necks.

Now do it again 2" by 10" by 10 feet mahogany plank on the bandsaw.  A big bandsaw no problem, a smaller 14 or less size, it's taxing to say the least unless the saw has been beefed up.

I read a few of the comments in this thread, not all.  Truth is it's not an either / or proposition.  Bandsaws are great for certain jobs.  By the same token, tablesaws are great for certain jobs.  Ya need both, sometimes more than one of each.  If I had to choose, I'd go with the bandsaw, but I don't.

[QUOTE=grumpy] I built my first 30 or so guitars without a band saw.... I could build the next 300 without one, too.Nobody's answered yet. How many curved pieces are there in a guitar?
<div style=": ; width: 28px; height: 28px; : 1000; display: none;">

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

As I said I have both, but I love my bandsaw more.

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.