Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm ready to go this route, just seems incredibly efficient to me. One thing I've been dying to ask David Collins is an explanation of the following statement I've seen several times from him now:

"I know many folks like to fret the board apart from the neck, but I've never been a fan of this method unless the builder has really done a lot of tests and refined a procedure enough to get consistent results. I see a lot of hand built instruments, and at first glance can almost always tell if the board was fretted before or after assembly. Some folks certainly can pull it off, but very few and far between in my experience."

So, David, what particular signs are you seeing? What mistakes do I need to be on the lookout for? Obviously, many people do get good results, so it is achievable.

Mario, I know you are an advocate, any input? Seeing your latest fretting jig and process is one thing that has me sold. That is way cool!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

Great question, Wes! I also fret before gluing the board to the neck...now you've piqued my interest as well!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

The results I see are that the board is not flat by the time the instrument is completed. To be honest, I've never actually seen good results. I've seen instruments from a lot of small builders who have done this, and have always been able to tell when sighting the neck and checking the fret work. Little S-curves, uneven relief, the common hump at the body joint.

When I said "Some folks certainly can pull it off", I have to admit that was only speculation on my part. I've never personally seen one (that I know of) fretted off the neck that I thought looked perfect in the end. I know at least one builder who gets excellent results fretting the neck before attaching it to the body, but I also know they went to great lengths of testing and tooling to get that consistency.

I'm sure it can be done though, and is probably done often. I believe Mario does it this way and I certainly trust his opinion in appraising a neck condition. I just think it's difficult to do consistently unless you take the time to refine your tools and procedures. for a small builder I think it's just much easier to get perfect results by leveling the board and fretting after final assembly.

If you want to fret the fretboard off the neck, I'd say go for it though. Maybe you'll be able to make it work. I would recommend approaching it with it in mind that you will have to do a little or a lot more fret dressing after assembly, leveling the surface out of the metal rather than the wood. Or it may go perfectly. The common catch here is the criteria and abilities used to evaluate it. I've seen a lot of builders who thought their completed fret work was just fine, but I came to appraise it differently.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

It works. Do it.

Thanks, David. I'm definitely gonna try it, just wanted to know what problem areas to look for and I value your experience. One great benefit of this forum and the luthier community in general is that we can draw off the knowledge of the great builders who have already perfected their process and eliminate some of the early mistakes. Builders like Mario and so many others that freely share their experiences greatly speeds up our learning curve. Not to say that a cool jig is the end-all, "just use this and your guitars will come out perfect every time" kinda thing - the hands, eyes, and brain or the builder still have to follow suit! (But I do intend to "borrow" Mario's cool process and learn how to make it work for me. )

So, I digress slightly from the topic, but here's a collective thanks to everybody who so freely shares their experience and advice!

Post on, gurus of the fretboard!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I've used all three methods (completed neck off the body, fret board off the neck and completed neck attached to  body on classicals) and each one has it's advantages and disadvantages.

The one entity that I am familiar with that is able to do this consistantly is C.F. Martin. I think there are a number of reasons for this. Obviously they are producing extremely accurate and consisitant results in slotting and shaping their fret boards. The other critical thing is that they stock many different sizes of fret wire, not crown sizes mind you but TANG size. At any rate they seem to be able to successfully mate the slot and tang depending on the wood type to produce a fretted board with only the slightest arch which is evenly and consistantly flattened when mounted on the neck and then the guitar.

I do agree with JJ that as a small shop I have achieved the best results (in my case on Classical guitars) by truing and fretting once the guitar is assembled. I realize however that there are many reasons (finishing being just one) for not doing this with steel strings.

If you do decide to go with fretting boards off the guitar I would suggest the use of an arbor press as opposed to hand hammering and careful matching of tang to slot size to minimize deformation of the board before it goes on the instrument.      

 Best

"I do agree with JJ" Sorry, meant to say that I agreed with David. 

I'm all in favor of folks nailing a method down of for perfect results fretting the board off the neck. I'm sure it's doable, but I think ambitious for many small builders. I definitely wouldn't recommend trying this if you're using a water-based glue for your fret board joint, but with epoxy there will be less complications. For me it's never been an issue, because fretting a completed instrument doesn't take me much more time than fretting a raw board. If you fret first, the end level is dependent on every other step and joint that the board/neck goes through to completion. Fret last, and you have the chance to finally and perfectly true up the board to keep any minor shifts from prior processes in check.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I've done it either with the board off the neck or on the neck and I am also still trying to decide which one works better for me.

I'll second David's L.'s recommendation to press your frets, this is what Mario does too per his article in GuitarMaker.  I measured half the back bow in a pressed fret fret board over a hammered fret fret board.

On the several that I have done with the board off the neck only one came out fairly flat.  The problem is that once the frets are in your ability to change the fret board is gone.

When I fret the board on the neck I always have an opportunity to true/level the board on the guitar which is advantageous.

I think the key to those who can make this work, consistently, is that they have all aspects of their body/neck geometry down - I don't and I have to tweak things.

If the attraction stems from the ease of pressing or hammering the frets off the guitar I have recently seen at David Collins shop some very clever ways to press frets, with the board on the neck, in any and all positions.  And of course you can start with a perfectly leveled fret board on the guitar this way as well.

DP, one minor correction about the Martin fret wire. They sell the variable tang size wire for after-market refrets, but they don't use that wire in production. Martin uses Jescar wire in the factory, which only comes in one tang size. I've talked to Jescar about variable tang wire, but it would require having some pretty expensive custom dies and setup. The variable tang wire they sell is made by PolyMetallurgical Co., (formerly made by Horton-Angell), and is really an inferior wire in my opinion, both in hardness and shape.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

The problem is that once the frets are in your ability to change the fret board is gone.

The above is very wrong and untrue. I hate how those of little experience speak things as fact. Speak, but add "I -think- the problem is....". Don't state as fact. That just de-rails things.

fact:

There is a great opportunity to straighten the fretboard after the frets are in, and before it is glued to the neck, than by fretting after the fact. When you fret a completed instrument, what have you to control the neck bow? Truss rod, and maybe fret tang size. None of you, 'cept David, can likely do compression fretting. So y'all rely on the rod. You fret, then tweak and tweak that rod, hoping it will adjust the relief evenly across the whole neck. My experience is that few rods ever do so. So you add Cf in the neck, you make laminated necks to make them stiffer. 2 way rods....

meanwhile i use Spanish cedar on guitars that will live their entire life with Mediums, and use nothing but a aluminum Gotoh Martin style rod. Single action, please and thank yo. Or I use non at all.

Press the frets into a dead flat board of the proper shape, tweak it to make it dead flat. You can bend it backward to take out the bow. You can press with little blocks between sections. You can control it every which way you wish! Don't tell me you don't have any control left after you fret, fercryingoutloud. It's just the beginning! When I'm done(and it isn't hard at all...), I have a dead flat fretboard that is completely fretted, fret ends milled and shaped. I can now be assured that gluing this flat fretboard to a flat neck with epoxy that won't induce any kind of bow, using a heavy aluminum caul(thanks Bob!), sitting on a dead flat, machined cast iron plate(old tools! seek out old tools at the dump). It's flat from beginning to end.

I didn't always have this system, and many of my older works aren't up to par, but today, I'll challenge anyone's fretwork and setup. My  personal mandolin, with a solid, non-adjustable neck, runs with an action in the mid .020's at the 12th fret. fretted before going onto the instrument, and without the benefit of a adjustable truss rod. In fact, none of my own instruments have adjustable rods. I use those in the ones I sell to appease the buyer.

Bottom line, it can work. No, it won't magically make you a great fretter and setup man on the first try. It's a system. You either commit to it, or not.

Some time ago Rick recommended to preshape the neck to as close as possible to its final shape before epoxying the fingerboard on to expose any stresses in the neck wood before the fretted board was on the neck. As long as you were very careful in leveling your board off the neck and in pressing (or hammering) the frets in, some careful attention paid to this surface should give a quality result.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Thanks for the clarification David.

Just for the record, the Martin slots measure .025" and the tang of the (Jescar) production wire appears to be .0185". I always purchase the .0185" wire from them and it seems quite good. Is it possible that just the larger (.0195"-.0275") sizes are the Polymetallurgical wire?

At any rate, this difference between this tang and slot size is greater than they used to use when they fretted boards on the neck and I think is the reason for the minimal amount of distortion when fretting their boards off the neck. In addition the boards are quite a bit thicker than when the boards were fretted on the neck. Those slots measured .020" and I recall using .0195" wire in them. Of course the non adjustable necks were a totally different system than today, you actually relieved the board about .005" from frets 1-5 and 12-20 and relied on the compression of the frets to stiffen it and string tension to bring it up to the proper relief.   

Best

I'm listening in on this one with big ears. I raised a couple questions on another fretting thread, which I'll copy below, in hopes for some helpful input from those of you (esp Mario) contributing to this thread. Thanks in advance...


To date, I've used CA glue wicked under the frets. I'm reasonably happy with this method, but am considering switching to Titebond. Do those of you who use Titebond as "insurance" for fretting have any issues with the wetting of the fretboard from the glue? This seems like a potential problem to me, esp considering the end grain in the fret slots soaking up the water from the glue.

I'm also planning to try the fret-the-board-before-gluing-it-on-the-neck method. This raises another question with regard to the use of glue in the slots. After fretting the board, I understand there will be some back bow, which can be straightened out by simply applying reversed bending pressure to the board, which will force the fret tang barbs to bite further into the walls of the fret slots, allowing the fret slots to close up a bit around the tang, resulting in the the back bow being removed. Using CA glue, the glue can be wicked in after the board is thusly re-straightened, or even after the board is glued on the neck. Titebond, on the other hand, has to be put in the slots first, so you'd then have hardened glue in there when you're trying to straighten out the board. It seems like that could get in the way of the closing up of the slots around the tangs as I just described. Are y'all following me?

Do any of you do it like that - fretting the board off the neck, using Titebond in the slots, then re-straightening the board by bending it back? If so, does this present any problems, or does it work like a dream?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Mario buddy thanks for the encouragement

Not that I am asking but you didn't address my point which was:  that if you have poor geometry with the fret board transitioning onto the body i.e. a rise, drop, hump your ability to level this out exists, often, with an unfretted board and a sanding beam with the unfretted board glued to the neck.  It does not exist, to level it out via sanding, with a fretted board.  I am speaking of a perfectly level fret board it's entire length not just leveling the frets.

So this unexperienced guy stands by his belief that leveling and fretting the board on the actual guitar is more reliable for those of us speakers of untruths who lack experience.

And for those of you, perhaps, who have the body geometry, fret board transition down and consistently have no issues with the transition fretting the board off the neck clearly is attractive.

Geeze.........

I fret the board on the neck, but off the body. Since I usually use an elevated board, there's a neck extension under the board extension that is reinforced with two carbn friber rods. Mounting the neck to the body doesn't change it a bit.

But I fret before mounting the neck even when I glue the board to the top without elevating it. Careful adjustment of a shim under the board extension does it on these.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Hesh, it's just geometry. Pre-fit things, get them lined up and flat, and continue. When you carefully plane that fretboard after installing it, do yo think it stays dead flat after fretting(you've seen what happens to a fretboard after fretting, right?) and what happens to that part above the body once the string tension is on and things settle even a bit? No longer flat.

That said, I want some drop off past the 15th fret. About .010" to .020" by the 21st fret. For many reasons.

Todd,

I press the frets in on the drill press with the fretboard double stick taped to a very rigid flat board. I put just a little LMI white on the tang and on the extension on a bound board. I press them in and clean up the excess(usually very little). Then I leave it for overnight and when I take it off in the morning it is usually very flat without the characteristic backbow. Most of the boards I have done like this are rosewood and I have used a couple different fret sizes. I am cutting slots with Shanes fret blade. In an ebony board with a oversize tang I am not sure it would work like this, but I have never tried it and it very well may.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

+1 on the dead level clamping surface.



I also fret off the neck, tweeking out the back-bow prior to gluing
onto the neck, mainly for the ease of pressing the frets with an arbor
press (I just *hate* hammering frets...). Mostly I'm doing bound boards
with no glue in the slots, pressing with the board sitting on a
dead-flat support caul.



Bound boards have much less back-bow than un-bound boards after fretting.

OK Mario I just had an "ah ha" moment after reading your last post which clicked with me.

Are you saying that you plane/sand/lancelot in the drop off on your fret board prior to fretting them off the neck?  This is what I am unsure of in what I am reading here.

I too go for about a .015 drop off at the 21st and perfectly level frets for 1-14 and this is of course not under string tension.  The best that I am able to do so far toward this goal is sanding the board on the neck, level between 1 and 14.  If my upper bout does not provide the gradual drop off between 14 and 21 I sand that in with a radiused beam.  And of course the frets between 14 and 21 in such close proximity will create the most amount of back bow in this location too.

Here are some pics of what is on my bench right now.  Although it is difficult to see with my pictures I have a dead level board and frets between 1 - 14 and a gradual drop off, which I agree is advantageous, between 14 and 21 resulting in a .016 final drop off at the 21st.

I have been doing this drop off for a while now for the exact reasons that you indicated.  I just can never predict if my upper bout will be perfect or if I have to sand in the drop off on the fret board manually.







BTW the frets are leveled and recrowned but not cleaned up yet......

Great topic - learning alot. With all discussion relative to gluing the frets I am wondering about opinions of thr Stew Mac newsletter some time ago where Dan E suggested wicking cyano into every fret to not only mak mmore stable but impacting sound.

I did this on two guitars so far and happy with the results and wondering if there is a downside I am not seeing.

In general, and following the article, I put a little wax on the fret board on each side of the fret, right up to the fret and then wick in cyano across the entire fret. The cyany wicks in very nicely and then I wipe off the excess if any with the wax.

Tapped frets before and after and you can hear the difference. Not sure about any real contribution to overall sound but seems like a more stable fret job.

Now I am wondering if this approach has any downsides like re-fretting down the road, or making it more difficult to adjust. Both the guitars I did were already on the guitar, all completed and this was a last step - more an experiement that a best practice

I have yanked frets glued in with wood glue, no problems.  I can't imagine CA would be much different.



Pain to clean out the slots though...

My only use for franklin's liquid hide glue, makes the frets go in soooo  nicely, yet holds 'em like the dickens! Stiffens the board, too.

[QUOTE=erikbojerik] I have yanked frets glued in with wood glue, no problems.  I can't imagine CA would be much different.

Pain to clean out the slots though...

[/QUOTE]

I used CA to glue frets in once-I had to heat up the frets with a soldering iron to get them out!!

We should heat ALL frets with an iron before pulling them. All!