Official Luthiers Forum!

The recent discussion on how to identify Brazilian throws up for me another question.

If something is offered as old growth, and you choose to use it, is there any obligation to provide a document trail to prove it is pre CITIES?

Was just wondering ?

Russell

Russell,

No "obligation" as such but my understanding is that if you want to export a guitar with Brazilian Rosewood parts then you need either CITES "passports" (Terence Tan showed me the ones he had for his certified wood - they go from owner to owner, with each new owner registering) for each piece used or firm and pretty comprehensive documentary evidence that the wood is pre-CITES ban.

No doubt Terence (aka Pakhan) will elucidate further.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Russell,
There's no obligation to provide documentation unless you ask for it. Robbie hit the nail on the head with regards to shipping overseas. You've gotta, and I mean gotta have all of your paperwork in order.

Thanks Dave.

I have the original purchase reciepts which date from 1958, and my reciepts for purchase. but all they really say is that a quantity of wood was purchased, no real cross reference with the actual pieces of timber.

Sorry Steve posted at the same time as you, do you think the documents I have are good enough for export?

Hi Russell, from I have gathered, you need to use those documents to apply for a permit- in this case pre-cites.

There has been a lot of doubt cast over pre-cites permits recently with the Spanish bustup and the export/import/resale practises of several tonewood companies.

I know of several which have bought up a quantity of very low grade, cheap brazilian and use the bill of sale of those to obtain permits for brazilian bought without documentation. The cheap stuff gets veneered.

It's a shame that a lot of legit businesses have to suffer the effects of a few. I'm phasing out my stock which I was promised permits for but never arrived- I changed supplier soon after that malarkey.

Also note that Dave is obsolutely correct in saying brazilian rosewood parts- even bridges and headplates should be accounted for.

I'm particularly fond of pulling that one out when folks talk about deforestation/appropriate documentation with brazilian B/S... well almost all Collings guitars have headstock veneer of brazilian (cites requirement), and all lowdens have a brazilian bridge (cites requirement). so if they have owned any....

Warmest Regards,
Terence
www.goodacoustics.com

Terence

Thanks for the guideance it is much appreciatted

I sure do. What you need to do is contact the UK CITES folks and apply for the permit. I know in my case I had to complete an application as well as send my notorized letters, receipts, and shipping records dating back to the 1950's. There's usually a fee you'll have to pay and you can get either a single or multi use permit.

Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
Steve

Steve

Thank you for your help very much for your help

Great. I bought a bit of BRW in planks about 25-30 years ago: cash transaction, and I'm sure I don't have a reciept. So where does that leave me? Looks like I won't sell any of those overseas...

Yeah, Alan, I've got some Brazilian headplates that I bought from LMI several years ago, and no receipt, either. Good thing nobody will ever want one of my guitars!