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I am curious, with so many different types of rosewood out there, how can you tell the difference between them? What are some key things to look for when distinguishing between rosewood? I ask because I am always scouting wood on E-Bay, but I couldn't tell the difference between Indian, Madagascar, or even Brazilian for that matter. Some are obvious to spot, but there are many sets of Brazilian I've seen that look no different than Inidan to my untrained eye. How do you tell?

Cheers!

John    

By eye? Online? You can't.

Experts get fooled, even sighted. When I was in Brune's shop a few months ago, he told me about, and showed me some Brazilian that he bought as Brazilian, but suspects it probably isn't D. Nigra but a similar species.

Very often on ebay you will find Madagascar RW being sold as Brazilian. Brazilian does have a distinct smell as does MRW and EIR. As previously mentioned, you will not be able to tell much from looking at pictures. Steve @ colonial tonewoods is Probably the resident expert on this subject so if you are out there Steve, take a break from cuttin and sniffing wood and give us a lesson on this.

I'd say, by sight you are stabbing in the dark. If you can, ask the seller to descibe the smell. Don't coach them but let them tell you. Brazilian has a definate "bubble gum" smell, MadRose smells, to me, like spanish olives, and Indian has a distinct floral scent. Pwoolson38548.6421875

Bubble gum that is dead on I couldn't think of how to discribe the smell of BRW but that is the perfect description Paul.

You have to be careful when talking about the smell of wood.
Just like trying to describe sounds- people hear things differently,that's why in my opinion it is pretty much useless to try.
Same with smells-it is just too subjective.
The only "real" way to identify wood is by comparing it (microscopically) to a known sample.

I think madrose has a cinnamon smell... maybe a slightly burnt cinnamon smell.... defintely a spicy smell. EIR has a very distinctive smell, you can spot that a million miles off... but hard to describe.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

zebrawood has a really nice smell!!!

Smells alot better than Zebras

[QUOTE=Brad Goodman] zebrawood has a really nice smell!!![/QUOTE]

I am sure to a Dairy farmer it smells like money

So, what it sounds like is that if you're buying Brazilian off of E-Bay (or anywhere), you need to really hope you get an honest dealer that knows their wood. I always check their feedback, etc, but I just don't know if I would know any different no matter what they sent me.

The description of all the smells reminds me of people describing wine tasting or cigars--nutty, oak, burnt, fruity, peachy--heck, I think it tastes like red wine and swisher sweets. I guess I just don't have that sophisticated palette yet, but I do know what I like.

Cheers!

John

I bought some Brazilian years ago in Brazil that looked every bit Brazilian. Several other Brazilian luthiers also bought the same stuff. Everyone was fooled until the finish went on. After the finish you could see small grain patterns that looked like the hairs on the end of a leopard's ears. This wood has a local name in Portuguese that means leopard's ear. As it turns out the sound is every bit as good if not better than Brazilian so pepole started asking for guitars out of the stuff.   

John, one thing that might cover you if you buy Brazilian off ebay is to ask for papers. If it's real and the dealer is "real" they should have papers. If they dodge the subject, I'd be a bit suspicious.

I don't know Paul... (not to disagree with you or anything...    ) but I have several sets and I don't have papers on any of it. I am about as sure as anyone can be that it is BRW since I bought it from people I absolutely trust.... and it is all very old.

I think papers MIGHT make me feel a little better... but somehow the cynic deep inside tells me that papers can be forged (especially by ebay sellers outside the USA)... so that "proof" would only give me a marginal bit of comfort.

Personally I would make sure you know and trust the seller if you REALLY want to feel comfortable... and work with people who will take it back if it turns out to not be BRW....

Brock Poling38548.7870601852

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Yeah, good point. I guess that was my way of saying that I'd be pretty skeptical buying BRW off ebay in the first place.

My view would be, there are no magic sources for Brazilian at bargain basment prices. My advice would be as Brock says work with people you know and trust, thats not to say there are not some very trust worthy people selling their wares on Ebay, My best tone wood supplier her in the UK I initially contacted through Ebay. With the demand for Brazilian as it is, chances are if it is way below market price it is probablly illegally sourced or fake.

The old growth Braz I have smells like earthy chocolate to me. Bubble gum? That really doesn't come to mind but maybe I should go sniffing again

EIRW has a very floral smell.

MadRW, cinamon, yeah but a hint of floral and spicy.

_________________
tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

I rarely see quartersawn backs BR rosewood. Are people uling flatsawn? How wo they turn out?

I'd like to chime in an add my 2 cents worth.
To me if you've been around Brazilian rosewood for years and years you'll get a good idea of what to look for. I've spent hours, cutting and sanding Brazilian rosewood. When your saw blade cuts into a board maybe an 1/8", you'll know immdediately if it's Brazilian rosewood. The best way to tell, in my opinion (no offense Brad), is to smell it. Do the old "scratch and sniff test." If the wood smells like a rose bud or has a very, very sweet aromatic smell, it's Brazilian rosewood. There's no other species that I know of that smells like Brazilian rosewood.
Each species of dalbergia has "its" own distinct smell be it latifolia, retusa, spruceana, stevensonii, cearensis, etc. If you spend enough time cutting and sanding each species you become familiar with the smell of each. I've often thought of bagging some Brazilian rosewood chips to people can get a really good idea of the smell.
Lastly, the paperwork. Most people don't have any because it's a royal pain in the butt and expensive.
If someone offers you legal Brazilian rosewood here in the U.S. I suggest you ask them for a copy of their CITES papers which is issued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Services, Division of Management Authority and their USDA general permit. If the person has these documents, you're in good shape. If they offer you something else, say "no thanks."
Hey it's Friday and I decided to ramble. What can I say.
Colonial Tonwds38548.895150463

The thing that makes it difficult to differentiate different rosewoods is that there are a couple dozen species, not even counting subspecies, that are all Dalbergia species but most are not seen and onlt a handful have been used for guitars.

I have had alot of businesses in the past, one of which was importing exotic wood from northern South America and from Nicaragua and Honduras in Central America. The other business was a sawmill and millwork shop in Guyana. Some of the native woods easily deflected bullets and when we had parts on the mill machinery or tractors break, I would fabricate a replacement using a metal lathe and bridgeport and the wood parts often wore better than the metal parts...then again some of the wood was Lignum Vitae :)

Besides the various rosewoods there are alot of other species that you would swear are true rosewoods but as Robbie mentioned, can be something else all together. Besides that the same species can have a local name that is different from country to country or even town to town throughout its range.

Anyone that was at the GAL conference saw the Malaysian Blackwood that Jeffrey Wong was selling...it had a look that was similar to Dalbergia baronii, the Madagascar that is more reddish purple than some of the other species sold as Madagascar Rosewood. While it looked like Rosewood, it was actually an ebony species that is in the same group of ebony species as Macassar Ebony.

As far as the sweet smells of various rosewoods are concerned while I can conjure up the smell of brazilian just thinking about it, to me the most fragrant and flowery of the rosewoods is Dalbergia Frutescens, Brazilian Tulipwood. It has the distinct scent of an old rose perfume.

If you havent seen it is is a soft golden yellow with a rose red stripe so it can be very striking. I does not grow as large as other rosewoods so its most common historic use was as sawn veneer that was used to create the checkerboard marquetry surfaces of french bombard chests...the colors do not fade either...not flashy but a subdued very pretty wood that shows the shades of sunset.

"Zootman" has bindings, bridge blanks and fingerboard blanks of Tulipwood...I am building a parlor sized (610mm scale) guitar for one of my daughters in curly quartersawn cherry with tulipwood binding which should have an all over rosy tint to start and will still have a nice contrast as the cherry oxidizes and darkens with age. The fingerboard and bridge will be curly purple gidgee that I got from Barry Kerr in Australia.

The comments about buying from a reliable, reputable source is very important. I once followed an entire container of honduras rosewood from raw logs to milled lumber that was loaded and sealed into a oceangoing container to be sent back to the US. Note that I even hung around as it was loaded onto the ship. 6 weeks later when the shipment arrived on the docks in Brooklyn, NY I was there to receive it. When the container was opened up for inspection, the container did not contain Honduras Rosewood but rather containing Platymicium dimorphandrum, a nice wood but definitely not Honduras Rosewood. I ended up barely breaking even having to sell the wood milled as hardwood T&G flooring.

[QUOTE=Shawn]The fingerboard and bridge will be curly purple gidgee that I got from Barry Kerr in Australia.
[/QUOTE]

What does the purple gidgee smell like? I suspect it smells like the ringed myall fingerboard blank I bought the other week, I never would have believed that a hunk of wood could smell like violets.

BTW, Barry has gone on a wood hunting expedition to Tasmania, he should have a bunch of nice stuff when he returns.

   I agree totally with Colonial tonewood. SMELL. While I have seen so many woods that look like each other I have yet to see one that smells like the other.
To me EIR has a tobaccoish smell. BRW bubble gum chocolate. Trust your nose when you can't trust your eyes. I only buy BRW from people I trust. I have a good supplier and I get good wood at reasonable prices but like all of us we guard out supplier like a journalist protects his souce.
   Good BRW is out there you just have to know where to find it. Ebay has some good people dealing there. Papers are not a guarentee. Trust your gut and good luck. Cheap BRW isn't usually BRW

Paul...you hit it on the head...ringed myall does smell just like violets...it is amazing that one wood can smell so sweet while other woods smell like pickles and such.

Gidgee is so variable in that it has a range of colors. I am a nut for Aussie woods and try to collect samples of all I can find. In the past I was very active in the International Wood Collectors Society in which people study and collect samples of some of the 100,000 species of wood found in the world.

This year there is an annual meeting of the IWCS that will be held in Toowoomba, Queensland (Australia)

August 30-Sept 5, 2006   ANNUAL IWCS MEETING & TOOWOOMBA WOODFEST

James Byrn Centre on the crest of Great Dividing Range (natural bush setting). Accommodations include twin bedrooms with basin, common bathroom facilities on each floor. Combined costs of accommodations, meals and tours estimated at AD$600/person. Contact Bruce Bell (#8303), Organising Committee 2006, P.0. Box 7823, Mail Centre, Toowoomba, Queensland 4352, AUSTRALIA, phone 07 4630 3525, bruce@tymba.com, fax 61 7 4630 3525

IWCS

    The best way to be sure that you're having the real deal shipped to you is to follow the advice that several have offered here by asking for copies of the USFWS/DMA issued CITES certificates and the sellers USDA permit. If they avoid it or say that it's not necessary, DON'T PURCHASE THEIR WOOD!! If you do, you'll be guilty of directly contributing to the continued loss of such valuable woods from the regions that they are indigenous to. Now, I've never been a radically active advocate for tree conservation, but I do have some close missionary friends in South America who frequent the rain forest regions who have shown us countless photos of the absolute destruction that has occurred there. Tracts of land covering hundreds of thousands of acres with every tree or plant destroyed for profit. It's shocking when you're able to see the truth instead of just hearing about it.

    Integrity has become a point of contempt instead of honor in our world and that's a sad thing in light of the internet becoming such a huge power venue for buying and selling circles where anonymity is so easily maintained, but integrity is only real when it's exercized when no one else is looking, if that matters to anyone.

    The lure of the profit margin offered by Brazilian Rosewood is enough to cause some to suffer a lapse in integrity. Even well known or well established builders have fallen prey to it over the years with the justifying effort of "Well, I'll just buy it this one time.", but all of those one time purchases by individuals add up to thiousands of sets of wood being illegally harvested and imported to the US every year. I've heard stories of woods being bought from folks that stumbled into a show not even knowing that what they had was of value. They assumed that since guitars are made from wood that the truckload they had may bring a few dollars at a guitar show and all that mattered to the builders buying it was that they were first in line and had their money ready to change hands for as much of it as possible. No papers...or even requests for them. The legality of the wood's availability wasn't important...just the profit margin.

    I would advise anyone to skip eBay as source for your Brazilian and go to a wood vendor who has taken the initiative to get all of the proper documents and has hooked up with a legal and honest seller in South America. Todd Taggert at Allied Lutherie is one of the best and most honest guys offering legally recovered Brazilian Rosewood in the world now.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

Kevin... I certainly don't disagree with the spirit of what you are saying.... but....

We all know that there is a lot of OLD Brazilian floating around in the US. Don Williams stumbled on a few planks in a guy's garage, and there are countless stories of getting the stuff reclaimed from old furniture, banks, and other souces.

I don't think it is as simple as saying "If it doesn't come with paperwork, don't buy it." That is over simplifying it. Again, I think common sense (and as you mention integrity) needs to prevail here. If you ** know ** and trust the seller and they tell you the wood is old, legit, and they have a ready explanation of where it came from then I think you can reasonably assume that it is probably ok.

This is not moral ambiguiety, just simple common sense. I agree with you completely that it is not wise for brazilians to level their forests to make a few bucks. In time they will come to realize this too.... hopefully in time to prevent its entire destruction.

But Brazil is not alone in this. I hear Madagascar is doing the same thing.

....


However, if your socially consciencous brain is in gear... I recently read an article where Brazil (and I think other parts of South America) are using SLAVE LABOR as a principle part of the logging industry. As I recall many of the slaves are kidnapped and sold into bondage. It was a very sobering story and very tragic. I would hate to think that our purchases were somehow contributing to THAT!!!!

I think every bit as much as demoloshing the resources the truth (or not) regarding the slavery issue is an issue worth examining... but unfortunately you almost never hear any serious discussion of this.

I will see if I can dig up those links someplace... Brock Poling38551.4072569444

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com