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I enjoyed your observation, Alan. It sounds like this is an article I'd like to read. The following is merely historical or sociological info and doesn't mention the merits for or against. It's for anyone interested in a bit more on the historical views of calling and vocation.

Vocation comes from the Latin vocatio. Vocatio is the way one participates in their community. Protestants traditionally call this "ordinary time," and it's what Protestant church services are geared to prepare you for week to week. Historically, they're more interested in preparing a worshipper to go outside into reality in faithful living. Google Saint Patrick's Shield for more insight into what that is (it's not behavior based). I Googled for an essay I read on Martin Luther's views on vocation and found it. Anyone can check it out if they're interested: http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/hein.htm.

The Protestant view of calling is that it's who you are, though that isn't the predominant idea associated with the word in modern Christian circles. Calling is the fabric that makes you who you are, you know, metaphysically speaking (i.e. not type B blood and a few extra pounds). Vocation is how you manifest that calling.

You can see how they improvise off each other.

I used a Lie-Nielsen #5 jack plane today for the first time since it arrived (the first time I've ever used a plane, actually). I used it by practicing different cuts and playing with the cut depth to see how it effected things. And then I showed the shavings to my mom. It was a great time for me, but not because it made me think about how I exist in my spirituality. I can't tell you why it's so fun to do, but it is.

I'm 26, so you know, our culture at large would tell you I shouldn't spend saturday mornings in the local woodworking store. I don't have an iPod, so I should've put the money down on that, right? Not a jack plane of all things (culturally speaking). But I did, and it felt special to learn with it. So for me, it's not religious, it's political.

Back to being a lurker.

That makes a nice parallel with my secular advice on success:
Find something you're naturally good at, and then figure out how to make someone pay you for it.
The corollary is that those who achieve greatness are the ones with the talent of a natural and the dogged work ethic of a hack

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I read Ervin's article, and felt like I was at the wrong end of a wagging finger. I also felt like Ervin is somewhat out of touch with the innovations and experimentation (and the creative spirit fueling them) going on in lutherie. It seems to me there are plenty of hippie craftsmen still around, that is, those of us that did not drown in our vomit or OD on mood altering substances. We're just older now! And some of us have embraced tools with moving parts. Many of us have built wooden utilitarian objects (like cabinets and furniture) and not just art objects. In that world, we found that repetitive operations had a more consistent outcome when we built jigs. So, we built jigs. When interests wandered into lutherie, the wisdom of jig-making was not forgotten (except by those hippies that had the most powerful Humboldt sin semilla.) If someone is building a single guitar, or is primarily concerned with, as Rick Turner said, the act of guitar making (the journey), then by all means, build the entire guitar with a dozuki, scrapers, planes, chisels, and knives. But for those who are at least as interested in the destination (the guitar), or who plan to build a few, jigs and power tools make a lot of sense. And, regardless of the level of the master luthier that wags a finger at me, I'll still enjoy the guitar.

Millions of acoustic guitars will be sold this year, maybe a couple thousand would qualify as (mostly) "hand built", and maybe a couple of hundred of those will be "hand built using only hand tools." That final group of guitars will either be purchased at a huge premium by collectors or very affluent players, or will stay with the luthier or within the luthier's circle of friends. However romantic the notion, Luddites building guitars for resale is counter to business logic. And, the addition of the skills necessary to properly use power tools and to build jigs does not negate the skills of using hand tools - they go hand-in-hand.

Ervin waxes on, "...there is, everything considered, rather little focus -- at least in print or on tape -- on anything touching on things like fruition/achievement, the learning curve, maturation, the larger perspective, context, or any sense of culmination, personal expressiveness, creative pleasure or spiritual satisfaction, and meaningful pursuit of quality." Maybe it's not leaking out into industry publications or on the how-to DVDs, but visit any of the luthier forums, or better yet, visit any of the luthiers active on these forums and you'll see that is not at all true. There is a great deal of all of those aforementioned attributes, and a huge amount of passion.

Just for the record, when Ervin states "...the most significant innovations...Bill Cumpiano's ergonomic tapered-body designs...", wasn't that Linda Manzer's innovation?

It is my understanding that Ervin Somogyi creates some of the finest sounding guitars on the planet, period. So, I certainly don't see him as a pretender to the throne. However, that particular article seemed a lot more like the thoughts of a wistful and somewhat tunnel-visioned grandpa than an industry spokesman.


I agree.

Dennis

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Dennis Leahy
Duluth, MN, USA
7th Sense Multimedia

I haven't read Ervins' article, would like to, but here's a little technology twist.

I don't do much numerical control programming anymore, I do some as I have a little cnc router. When I was out of school in the early eighties I went to work for one of the big aircraft companies, McDonnel Douglas. I worked in the lofting / tooling group. Our function was to define the surfaces and program very large multiaxis mills to cut those surfaces. While we were able to define the surfaces on an CAD system, we had had to program the tools in a language called APT. It's very similar to fortran, and it's flying blind, no graphics. It could be very difficult at times as you didn't want to crash a multi-million dollar machine or ruin a bunch of material and your working in 5 axis.
I found this work very challenging and rewarding.
Now I can do all of this graphically and I can teach almost anyone to it, in a matter days ( BillyT will chime in here saying yeah but need to know how to use the tools, and I completely agree with him).
So for me numerical programming no longer has the challenges and rewards associated with it as technology advancement has made it so much easier. Does this advancement make worse tools? Obviously the answer is yes, I mean no. I just wish it meant yes, as I then would be in a select group of people who can pull the task off, like I use to be in the 80's.

On the up side, I have a pc running Solidworks and VX , plus a cnc router in my shop. That would have never happened in the 80's. And yes I enjoy having them. I think of them as the ultimate in flexibility, partly because the programming has become so easy.

Ervin is definitely at the top of the guitar building game and has a customer base that appreciates his hand work. Hand skills are great. Most of my guitars have been built solely with hand tools btw, but my router will get busie, believe me.

It's not the tools that make a great guitars, it's the builders understanding of the instrument and materials.

Just some thoughts.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

There are thousands of guitars made a year "by hand", and I mean with little more power tooling than a bandsaw. The main tool used is a "cucillo"...a knife ground from an industrial power hacksaw blade with a handle make of friction tape. Unfortunately, most of those handmade guitars are disposable junk. They come from Paracho, Mexico.

Yes, some fine guitars come out of that town, but the point is that very hand-made guitars can be dreadful, too...

Apparently there's some contention in the industry over this particular subject. From what I have heard, both Bill and Linda claim the idea as their original idea, and there of course are a group of friendly builders on each camp in the argument. Who knows? We may find that someone in the 1700's had the idea first. And they could have got the idea from someone two centuries earlier who did it on a lute or something. Hard to know for sure. Linda has documentation going back to the 80's, and Bill's version seemed to come from the 90's. But it isn't out of the realm of possibility that he came up with the idea without having heard of Linda's. Stuff like that happens, and then there's the surrounding story behind the story. Look into the history behind electricity in the US, and why they went with direct current rather than alternating current....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

http://buildingtheergonomicguitar.com/2 ... uitar.html
I found a 1984 date for Linda's first "Pikasso"

http://www.cumpiano.com/Home/Guitars/Sp ... -page.html
This article is from the May/June 1995 Acoustic Guitar Magazine.
Trivia note: I went to high school with Joel Zoss in Rhode Island. He got me deep into 12 string guitar...

I would say that this gives Linda the nod...

Hand vs. machine is a red herring. The starting point for any discussion of that topic ought to be David Pye's "Nature and Art of Workmanship," which sadly has gone out of print again (the publisher likes to keep it going in and out every few years, which is really a crime). No, I'm not going to summarize it. Last time I agreed to do that (on MIMF), people started to critique what they imagined Pye's book to say based on a sentence or two that I wrote, and it quickly got ridiculous.

However, what you guys don't know is that Ervin is really a lot older than he looks. He was born in the 19th Century, and is nostalgic for a time when there were no electric tools. His true ambition is to be the leader of a religious cult. That's the real reason he gets these groups of people to his shop every six months or so--to indoctrinate and mesmerize them so that they will leave as glassy-eyed cultists. You can see it in how they describe their experience: so totally life-changing, yet impossible to put into words. This GAL article is no doubt part of his scheme. I wouldn't read it; it's probably full of subliminal suggestions. If you have read it already, contact a good deprogrammer before you too gulp down the Kool-Aid.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Pye's book, while out of print, can be obtained by inter-library loan. A worthwhile read...

I'll admit that the first time through, I couldn't finish Ervin's article. I, too, felt like at the wrong end of a wagging finger, from someone who seemed out of touch. After reading this thread, I've gone back and forced myself to read it, and again, couldn't finish it. My take is that he's trying to think too much, trying to force things to fit the view. Would his views be different of Bob Taylor were Jewish? What then?

I don't think if I cross the street and begin attending a different Church that I'd reorganize my shop to either automate more, or toss all my power tools and only keep my hand tools...

yes, we have a lot of people building nice stuff(not just instruments) using heavily jigged and tooled up home workshops today, but that's more a reflection of the availability and affordability of these tools than it is the laziness of the tool's user! Man has always sought to use the best tools at his disposal, no matter what era.

And from looking around with eyes open, I see more hand tool users than I would expect there to have been in the 70's. Go to most woodworking forums, and the hand tool sections are always the liveliest. The more we surround ourselves with mass-produced, faceless, lifeless, soulless junk, the more we yearn for something handmade, something personal, nearby. The more time we spend locked up in a sterile world, the more we yearn for the outdoors, for the wild, for something natural. So, in my mind, all these mass produced, faceless instruments help create a heavy demand for handmade, more personal instruments. And that same demand creates a fascination in making them.

And all of that will ensure that we not only retain the old methods, but that more and more people will take up the old methods. We often skip a step when we begin a new journey, but most of us will at some point, re-trace the origins of that journey; be it tools and going back to a hand plane instead of sandpaper, or be it learning to play rock'n roll, only to discover its roots are in rockabilly, only to have that lead to the high spirited Bluegrass sounds of Bill Monroe's 1946 band, which will lead you to the gospel brother duets, only to discover that that is where John and Paul learned their harmonies, which lead to the Beatles, which lead a young fella to want to play acoustic guitar because he wanted to learn to play "I've Just Seen A Face, which will lead the young fella to look at his guitar and wonder why that more expensive one made by that guy in Northern Ontario sounds so much better, which leads that young fella to pick up a book on guitar making, which leads him to Larry's hardwood porn site, which leads to StewMac, and next thing we know, he's whittling wood......

And all the while, nobody's Denomination ever mattered.

Methinks all's well in the world. Don't overthink it all....

The Grumpster speaks truth. Don't overthink stuff.

I would be curious about how many people have actually READ the article vs. projecting about what they "think" it says.

I too, thought... "oh boy... here we go" when I first started reading it.

But after I was done I was pleasantly surprised. It was not a bash of technology or jigs, it was more a nostalgaic lament for the loss of hand skills (essentially atrophied muscles because we are now all jigged up to the teeth.) I really didn't get a sense that he was saying that we should all use fewer jigs, but that we shouldn't lose sight of honing our skills with hand tools. I would wholeheartedly agree with that. I think we need to continue to push on all fronts.

As to the religious thing.. I really can't say what he meant, but I wasn't getting the feeling it was dependant on which faith you were, but that people who were highly focused on religion in their lives brought some of that over to the craft. I wasn't sure if it was the act of creation, more of a holistic bonding with the elements of nature to produce a tool of beauty and inspiration or what.... I really didn't see it as a dis of anyone, just his perspective that he was speaking about almost out of stream of conscienciousness.

... and one thing I really latched on to, and I have not seen it mentioned thus far in this thread is that he really had something nice to say about those of us who do this not as our vocation, but our avocation. [paraphrasing] he said that the level of curiosity and willingness to learn is refreshing. Whether you agree or not, this is somewhat of a unique point of view from one of the Sr. vets of the biz, and I found it nice to hear.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

There was an article in FWW many years ago. Maybe someone who remembers it better can give more details but the gist as I remember it was...

Someone sent in a photo of an intricate wooden bowl that was made of interwoven parts. The person said they were very common in their country and was asking if anyone knew how they were manufactured. Loads of people speculated about all sorts of eloborate jigs and procedures that might get it done. Finally someone said something to the effect of, "Those weren't made in factories. My dad used to make those in about 10 minutes with a pocket knife."

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Howard I am sorry to see that you injured your thumb.

Did this injury happen while using hand tools or power tools...........

I re-read Ervin's article today. I have to say I was just a little amused when I read the part about how all of us old farts started out with hand tools. Sure we did: hand tools were all we could afford! And anyway, small drum sanders and such were not very common in industry then, even if we could have afforded them. Those who really wanted one made their own. For a lot of us, by the time we could afford all the power tools we had gotten fast enough with the hand tools that it didn't matter so much.

I have to wonder if computer controlled tooling as as flexible as and as fast as a good hand worker. It probably works out to be similar to the situation in logging camps. Hand saws and axes are pretty easy to maintian as compared with chain saws. John Hughes said that, in the old days, it took two minutes to get ready and two hours to chop down the tree. Now it takes two hours to get ready, and two minutes to chop the tree down.

I bet we could argue for weeks about whether the output of a CNC machine can be called 'art'. Back when harpsichords were new the lute and viol players looked at them in the way that some folks did at synthesizers a few years back; they were not seen a 'real' musical instruments. The harpsichord makers would put a Latin motto on the box: "Sine Scientiam Ars Nihil Est", which could be read as 'without science art is nothing" I think another valid reading might be:"without undertanding skill is useless".

This is an interesting thread.
My feelings are that a craftsman avails himself of all tools at his disposal to accomplish their project. I think that this would also include using the best materials for the project. It’s the skill of the craftsman that shows through regardless of the amount or type of tools. They are able to massage the parts and create something that is more than the sum of the parts. Does it matter if all the tools are power or hand or if some parts have been manufactured? No, because it always boils down to the skill of the user. That is why a Master Luthier like Ervin Somogyi can produce guitars that fetch such high figures as Rick correctly points out. That’s also why other people can use the same woods and tools and have a result that is only a guitar like object.
I do feel that maybe it’s a spiritual feeling one gets when you string up an instrument and it makes its first sounds. It brings a smile to your face.
I just remembered something I posted a long time ago so I thought I might repeat it.
“Here is a thought that I sometimes post on a Hypnotherapist forum. Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Hypnosis and building a guitar can be done by anyone. To do them well and at a professional level is another story.”
Philip

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aka konacat

If you think my playing is bad you should hear me sing!
Practice breeds confidence and confidence breeds competence. Unfortunately, I'm stuck in practice.

I almost hate to say this, but the personality of the builder and the publicity they generate and receive has a lot to do with the prices they command once you get above about $7,000.00 for a guitar. It's not the skill in the build anymore, it's mainly about the hustle, as gentle as that may be. How else do you account for the discrepancy between the prices for new Traugott and new Claxton guitars? Objectively they are on the same plane...certainly they are within a plus or minus 5% of one another on just about every level you could possibly judge. Yet the price difference is a good 50% or more... Some guitar makers just appeal to high buck collectors. They manage to make such collectors feel like the Medici of the new Millenium...true patrons of the arts. They sell heaping doses of personality along with every bit of Brazilian rosewood or ebony binding.

I'm not finding fault with this; it has ever been so in the art world, for instance. Big buck buyers want to purchase a bit of your life and soul with your guitars. They want to feel essential to your success as an artist in your field. There's a lot of ego involved when you're selling guitars at those prices, and part of what you're selling is perceived genius. The danger is buying into it...

its the same in Fine Furniture - guys like Garrett Hack get huge money for their commissions just because they are...Garrett Hack. There's a level of quality that is expected to be there, and it is, consistently, but no more than a half dozen other guys I know that can do that kind of work properly. They are able to perpetuate the "Artist" mystique.

The only one I know that consistently marketed the fact that he keeps his prices high is Thomas Moser. You can't go near the guy without hearing him tell you to keep your prices high. He's always espoused the fact that you should get paid well for doing good work.

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Mitch

I don't know if I would agree that the hustle "always" is the predominant factor in why some builders command higher prices - and receive them too.

At HGF I played 2 Somogyi guitars and they were both, hands down, the finest sounding guitars that I have ever played........ And I am no push over either and my expectations, knowing what these things cost, were stratospheric to say the least. Both guitars exhibited a tone that was superior to any that I have ever heard prior. But it did not stop there....... when you hit a note the initial note sounds clear and loud as a bell but in less than a second it is as if, for lack of a better analogy, a turbo-charger kicks in and the notes actually build in clarity and volume. I suspect this is the back kicking in and how Ervin views voicing a guitar from a systematic approach that includes the back, stiff sides, and what ever else that he does.

Mind you when I sat down with one of his guitars my attitude was more on the order of being highly skeptical and skewed toward disproving the legendary accolades that I have heard.

Do they sound $20K better then many other very fine guitars? Not to me but I can see how they might to a purist and someone in a position to consider $30K chump change.

Ervin does indeed have the image thing working well for him as well and is the living breathing example of the old world craftsman toiling to keep the last vestiges of a dying art alive. But perhaps this is not just an image - perhaps it is a reality.

THAT is the tip of a very large iceburg.

I am very interested in products/prices that defy supply and demand. At a point they self perpetuate. Demand skyrockets as price increases.

What I would love to know is, is this the marketing genius of guys like Jeff, or is it just the luck of chance that he fell into it?

I am not taking anything away from him or his guitars.. clearly he has the chops. But the point is, can you engineer that kind of marketing? I am not sure you can, it seems to be somewhat organic. But I would love to have the inside view.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Don't discount religion in the context of art and craft. The Shakers believed that every act of creativity or innovation was a direct gift from God. God would only bestow these gifts on those who were worthy. So, in the Shaker community, creativity and innovation was tangible evidence that the innovator was worthy. That was a pretty valuable currency in Shaker circles. The more you create, the more "holy" you are. There was never more than a few thousand Shakers at any one time and yet they defined a whole new style architecture, furniture, storage containers and clockworks as well as many new production methods like the table saw.

As a side note to Mike's comment and slightly related, I think, was it Kim Walker who said that you need to be a good person to build good guitars or something to this meaning. I think it was in an NPR interview that was linked here about a year ago.

If there is any truth to either of these points of view then my guitars suck..........

Huhm! Nope too easy!

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Billy Dean Thomas
Covina, CA

"Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur."
(Many fear their reputation, few their conscience)

Here is my take on the article.

I don't see it as a debate over hand vs power tools so much but more of a feeling that luthiers need to understand the entire process completely rather than just using a jig to complete a task.

For example, a beginning builder can buy a binding cutting jig and within a short period of time can begin cutting very clean binding ledges. Nothing wrong with this approach - that's what I have done.

On the other hand, that same builder can learn how to do it by hand and maybe eventually design and build his own binding jig (rather than purchasing it). I would have to say that this builder would be more prepared in an unusal situation or be able to cut the ledge with whatever he has available even if the power goes out or the jig breaks. He would also be in a better postion to come up with new ways to do it that no one has come up with.

Of course, personal time constraints, motivations and goals factor into how much you will do in the second example. Personally, I feel I have missed a step along the way and am trying to learn to do it by hand as well as still using the jig.

That was TJ Thompson. I can't recall the exact quote though.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."