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Dave first I would like to thank you for allowing me this opportunity to learn.
I am not suggesting changes because I think it will sound great as conceived.
When I saw your drawing my mind filled with implications and questions and a thirst to understand what the issues and challenges of a second neck are with a Weiss style double neck.

Dave the first thing that stuck in my mind about using ladder bracing for this application is that because of the high amount of string tension the most difficult part of this build will be to get the bracing just right? The window between to stiff and to light has been considerably narrowed and is much narrower than if you had gone with some sort of modified X-bracing?



The second thought was that in this instance the ladder bracing and the use of a one piece bridge might create a strong couple between the string courses. Since open D and open G share three D notes it seems the course not being played could act as sympathetic strings possibly creating an imbalance in string to string response and sustain? Because of ladder bracing effect on the cross dipole it would be strongest on the high D?

The third thought was in Grumpy's field of expertise. Intuitively it seems to me that one of the points of high stress is where the necks meet the head block and I wondered if that influenced you for its shape & would curving it into the necks very slightly help widen the area that is taking the load? This is assuming that I saw things correctly and the inside of the necks are one curved piece?

The offset of the source of the long dipole and cross dipole from the center of the lower bout has to be doing some weird things to them and their relationship to each other? What is the neck/top mode relation ship for a Weiss style instrument? is-determined mostly by the fingerboards function as a brace and its weight?

If two people play it at once would the competing long and cross dipoles cause some weird cancellation/reinforcement effects?

Not that this should be done but am curious if the effect of V-ing the necks and changing the vectors of the string tension would allow lighter bracing and help achieve a broader mellower sound?
Offsetting bridges to put them slightly out of phase ?

Hope some of this made sense?

Kirby

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

No idea what you're talking about....

Grumpy - I can see why you are confused. In another post I mentioned to Kirby that I am designing a ladder braced double necked acoustic lap slide and Kirby was interested to explore the design process of double necked instruments on the forum. I suggested he started a separate post and see how it went. If no one else was interested then we will do it via pm/e-mail. This is a (very poor) picture of the embryonic design (see the bottom of the post):



I don't think this is a problem as the ladder braced harp guitar I made has the same string tension and is working fine.



Part of the attraction of the double neck is to have the strings linked sympathetically. I know that a lot of people use sperate bridges on the harp guitars and Lance McCollum advised me to do this but I made the harp guitar with one bridge and like the resulting sound. Also with the high arch I use for the top (13' radius) one bridge would seem to me to drive the overall top better and give a better structural effect. If I don't like the coupling I can always take it off and replace it with two seperate bridges.



Maybe you meant Rick Turner rather than Grumpy.

My design has two seperate hollow Weissenborn necks and in the middle is a "neck block" that will have cf flying buttress braces tied in there and to the sides. I decided to have one central sound hole rather than two at each upper bout edge as this lets me use my soundhole re-enforcement patch with two A type braces on each side that will tie into the neck-block. The lower arms of the A braces but against the ladder brace just below the soundhole. This gives good support to the weak area of the Weiss - end of soundboards and soundhole. The two seperate hollow box necks are a strong construction, plus I will do a zig-zag lattice of small cf struts just under the soundboard on the necks as I do on my single neck Weisses. The necks don't really tie into the "neck-block" as such.



I'll use Grumpys quote on this one. Over to Al C maybe?



It's meant for one person to play but they could well be playing in D on the lower neck and throw in a suitable strummed chord from the G neck and vice-versa . I really want the two to interact and until it's built and tried I don't know if this will be good, bad or indifferent. Paddy Burgin seemed to be experiencing positive interplays with his double necked Weiss.



See my answer to your first and third questions.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Well, I'm the flying buttress guy, and I say do it.

But there's another thing going on here...

You desperately want this first instrument to turn out perfect. Understood. But that's not how R&D works. Unless you're willing to fail and fail miserably learning how to do something new, you'll never really "own" the results when you get it right. It's all very well and good to theorize this stuff into the stratosphere and imagine your dipole this and your monopole that, but none of us can tell you how this sucker is going to sound.

Just do it.

If it doesn't work, do it again...and again...and again.

That said, some of my most successful moments have been when I built something new and it worked first time out of the chute or worked well enough to prove that I was on the right path. I can honestly say that I've never built a totally unsuccessful instrument, and one of the reasons is that I don't shy away and hold back from just building the things. I think a lot about what I'm going to do, but I don't wallow in self-doubt.

But there's that point where rubber meets road and you've got to take wood to the saw and glue to the wood.

Just do it.

Rick,

You are preaching to the converted. I am doing it - the build is underway and I'm photo documenting it here. This is part of a learning development that goes back to my first instruments and in this case comes from a ladder braced Concert guitar, ladder braced harp guitar and an X braced Weiss. I don't fear failure otherwise I wouldn't have made what I have up to now and learned what I have. Failures usually teach me more if I understand why, change and adapt.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I can see why you are confused. In another post I mentioned

Ah, I see. I haven't seen a tread title with looking into for days now, so I'm not "up" on the forum's going-on's <g>. It's literally been days since I opened a thread to read...

I really, really miss being able to see who's posting in each thread. That's how I used to decide on what to read, but now, I have to go with the thread's title, and this place has always been terrible about titling a thread. Oh well...

Hi Dave,

Just a shot in the dark here, If you ever want to talk to someone that has built a double neck weissenborn you can go to http://www.celticcrossinstruments.com . Neil Russell is the luthiers name and he has some pictures somwhere on his site of musician Doug Cox playing a nice double necked weissenborn lap steel. He is a really nice guy, give him an email if you so desire, i'm sure he'd love to talk to someone who does similar stuff.

Looks like fun. Willy W.

K.O. asked (or so I gather):
"If two people play it at once would the competing long and cross dipoles cause some weird cancellation/reinforcement effects? "

You're over thinking it. A single mode, such as a 'cross dipole' only shows up as such when you drive with a 'pure' tone. In use you get whatever combination of things can be driven by the string partial 'recipe', and it all just sorts itself out. If things are 'fighting' each other, then you simply get less sound or a different directionality or whatever, and that's part of the characteristic of that instrument.

As Rick says, in the end, the only way to know for sure is to build the thing. Analysis after the fact might help you figure out what to do differently, or the same, the next time, but even then it can be a crap shoot.

Mario. Forgot how to read? It's easy enough to read who is the author and who last posted.

What if the interesting poster isn't the guy asking the question or the 'me too!' at the end?

Also, getting snarky without putting in a name is either careless or cowardly.

_________________
Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

"You're overthinking it" quoth Al. Truer words have hardly been written here. As I alluded to, many early year builders...those starting out...get so hung up in their heads and afraid to just build the damned guitars that they drive themselves nuts and never get enough done to really get tone into their fingertips. You can armchair luthier this stuff to death or you can go out in the shop and build a bunch of guitars. You'll learn a lot more from the latter than the former.

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Tony,

I haven't seen Neil Russell's version but will try and check it out. Are you saying that my ouline design (in the bad picture I posted) is an exact copy? Coincidence if it is!! I have seen Paddy Burgin's and he was the inspiration for what I am doing and I say "inspiration" as I am being very careful not to make an exact copy at all - Paddy's looks to be wider in the lower bout than the one I will build, has two seperate soundholes and I gather is an X braced version (as you say that Neil's was). Mine is ladder braced with a central sound hole and will be highly arched top and back. Plus if you looked at the website link I posted you will see this is not being built as a sale "stock model" but for my daughter Martha who is big into lap slide and has been nagging me to make her a double neck since she saw Paddy's on Youtube.

Those that know me at all know that "copying" is not what I do - I take things that I admire from other builders and use them where they fit in in my own style and acknowledge those that I "borrow" from. As for designing the first double necked "Weiss", what about this one made by The Greenfield Brothers in Canada way back - Ok not technically "double" necked but pretty darned close:



I'll take Willy W's advice and contact Neil.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

OK Just found pictures of Neil Russell's instruments. Beatiful things but with two sound holes, two seperate bridges X braced top and look to have a lower bout wider than 15":





As I say I'll drop him an e-mail.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Yeah, and nobody should copy Martins either...

Tell that to Richard Hoover, Bill Collings, Bill Tippin, Julius Borges, Kim Walker, Huss and Dalton, T.J. Thompson, and a few hundred other folks...

Either copying is OK or it's not.

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What's the difference between a copy and a reproduction? 50 years?

Hey, I'm not any more eager than most to have my designs knocked off, but there's not a hell of a lot anyone can do about it other than become well knows so your name has value and also to stay one jump ahead of the copyists...or are they reproductive experts?

The first copies of my stuff were Aria Alembic knockoffs in the 1970s, and there was nothing to do but smile.

I can only hope that I do something that someone feels is worth copying at this point.

I have yet to copy any thing. I like doing my own thing. Funny thing is since coming here there are two instruments that I would like to copy closely. The first is Alan Carruths Ozark Dulcimer and he gave permission(he was of the opinion I did not need it anyway I.I.R.C.)(I would rather own one of his but am to broke). The second is Dave Whites Candi.

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

Rick and Al good advice don't over think it and just do it. At this time I am just doing my home work and am at least a year and a half from attempting a double neck. I have three singles and a carved back square neck to attempt first.

Dave I really mucked up how I said things at some times I have probs. I am going to give it a rest until tomorrow and try again. Some of what I said belonged in the other thread I started.

I missed the A frame braces in the drawing, should have known they were there.

Dave I think the get off ya butt and do it was aimed at me and rightly so.

Surprisingly gentle nudge instead of a swift kick. I do appreciate your time an effort all.

_________________
"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...