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D, OM and AJ... That's all public domain, and as long as we're not sourcing them from OLF plans that shouldn't be an issue regardless of sales of OLF plans, because OLF doesn't own any kind of copyright or trademark on those in the first place. That goes with the territory if you're going to sell an as-built drawing of a common item. OLF's not a charity, I don't have an obligation to line Lance or Brock's pocket, even though I already do in other direct and indirect ways. They get to benefit from our free and public exchange of information, that's what drives traffic to the OLF. Otherwise it'd just be a page of links.

The OLF plans will still offer value and will still sell, I'll still buy any plan you make if it's something I have an interest in building. Someone's willingness to charge for something doesn't negate my ability to freely share my own efforts, and if it's not shared here some other site would probably welcome the traffic and activity. We don't need to put a toll on every information exchange here, and we don't with any other medium (text, pictures, video).

Rod, if anyone had a body tracing or straight on photo from a Martin Size 1 guitar, I could convert it to CAD if all you needed was the outline.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

Thanks for the offer Jonathan,

I was mostly trying to make a point though. Forums are all about free exchange of information. We choose to be subscribers because we want to support the forum, we choose to buy the plans because we find value in them and want to support the forum. As has been always stated, these are just programs to help support the financial side of the forum, BUT generally everything here is free exchange. We all give and take, some take more than they give and others give way more than they take, it's just the way it is.

The OLF is most likely the most popular location on the net for guitar builder information, adding anything like free exchange of body shapes and guitar parts in cad form (honestly even full plans) will only increase the volume of attendant's here which will probably increase revenues greater than the current library of plans will ever do. I don't see it as something that will kill the library of plans (which is rather small) but it very well may increase the membership here which will generate more revenue overall. Build it and they will come!

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

The Library of Plans is a great concept but I think falls way short of what it could be.

I purchased a set of SJ plans last year and really enjoyed the drawings but the process of getting the drawings was rather slow (they were out of stock when I ordered them) and I really didn't need the paper copies of all the details. At the time I really just needed some of the facts from the drawings to support much of the research that I had received from the OLF user threads. I would have really killed for a online library of plans that I would have been able to look over different body styles, bracing layouts, etc. and download the CAD files I was looking for. I would have been glad to pay a reasonable fee for the CAD files I needed. It just seems that for the sake of a limited library (that generates some money) it is killing the amount of information that could be shared among the users in a user supported CAD library with files that could be downloaded.

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Brad
Avon, OH

Personally, I would love to see a CAD sharing library. It would be good if it was somehow linked to those that are subscribers. That way, the forum makes money and the members share their files too.

I could really use a Martin Dread neck file

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Reguards,

Ken H

Or why not charge a small fee to download...kind of like iTunes that charges a $1 per song.

Those who upload could earn free downloads.

Maybe there could be a member price and non-member price.

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Brad
Avon, OH

The only think that feels like I banging my head against the wall is reading everyone turn what I am saying into that I want to restrict free exchange of information. I do understand most of each your points of view for having such a library of cad files. I never in any way inferred that you should not be able to share your cad files with each other. If this cad library is something the rest of the membership wants, well than so be it. I will from this point forward set back and watch and wish well to such an enterprise with my only regret being that I did a poor job of debating my point.

Surrendering now to my respect for each of you, I will close my protest of this issue. But Please know my argument had absolutely nothing to do with restricting the free exchange of ideas, knowledge, or information. I had hopped you all knew me better than that. Rather only I wanting to protect future of a service that helped in a small way, keep this grand forum available to us all.

In addition to guitar plans, you could also include jig plans. Those are worth just as much as the guitar plans in my mind.

I would be all for a CAD library. You could keep the hardcopy plans for the non-CAD/non-large format printer crowd (I would suspect this would be the majority) and you could offer CAD downloads for about 1/2 of the cost of the hardcopy plan to those who do use CAD. I think that if the cost is kept reasonable, then this would in large part discourage illegitimate file sharing. It just isn't worth anyone's time to spend 3 hours searching for a file that they can buy for $10. I would also guess that a large number of users on here are casual builders (check out the past polls on the user demographics) and do not have a "network" of folks by which they would circumvent the system. There are enough pro's on here with connections that they could more effectively circumvent the system, but it seems that this place wouldn't exist at all unless their heads were in the right place.

Another option may be to provide royalties to those who provide the plans. I can't help but think that this would be the best way to develop a library with a good variety of plans.

I do think that 3D files should be distinguished from 2D files in any CAD library. Fully surfaced 3D files allow anyone with a CNC machine to reproduce the part whereas a 2D file is fairly limited in use (as has been mentioned...it is pretty easy to trace contours & get a smooth 2D curve in CAD). At the least, I would market the 3D cad files at a much higher cost than the 2D files (and this would probably encourage illegitimate file sharing). Personally, I would share a 2D file, I would only rarely volunteer a 3D file to the masses, unless there was incentive to do so or unless I was sending it to someone in particular I was helping out. The only people that a 3D part would help out are those who are running production equipment...and I feel that it would not be right for someone running production parts to take advantage of the system for the purposes of mass production. I'd be pretty P.O.'d if I saw someone making $ off of my parts on Ebay!

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

I hope you're not thinking I'm saying you don't support the free exchange of ideas and information Michael, I do think I know you better than that. You're very giving and open to share what you know here for free.

What I am saying though is free exchange generally invites more people to participate that's all and the more free exchange of things the more likely subscriptions will happen or sponsors will be visited.

The library of plans is very limited in it's value overall to the forum, what if the idea of it can be advanced to something even better. Don't limit the idea to what is current. Heck if Lance and Brock did that with the software, we'd still be back with no edit button and one slow forum. Let's think how it can be better Michael. Some guys have given some great suggestions here don't you think? I mean there's only 7 files in the "library" right now of which only 4 are in stock. Hardly a library really, lets make it grow by opening up the potential for more advanced exchange of the files. I bet getting those drawings printed and the time it takes to do it and ship it out barely covers the bother of the task and very little of the fee charged effects the overall cost of the forum.

I love the idea of a cad file store where you can download for a fee of some sort, with the exchange of uploads for downloads.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

as promised this has nothing to do with my stand on the library.

providing c complete cad files as in drawing files of a guitar plan or fixture in a free or even a premium based plan is a bad idea at least from a professional cad drafter point of view. Now simple profiles and such is totally different. It takes typically 10 to 16 hours to develop a set of guitar plans from scratch (no go bys) if you have the info at your fingertips and much much longer if you are designing a new product and not just putting an existing product on cad. If you provide your formal plan drawings in an editable cad drawing format is in essence giving license for someone to plagiarize your work Sharing your plans in a reproducible but non editable (easily anyway) format that inhibits plagiarism is the common means of offering cad work to end users. I my self would never offer my work in a format that someone could edit but it is hard for me to look at this any other way as I make my living providing professional cad and engineering drawings. I guess a hobbyist cad drafter may not worry about such. Now I am speaking of formal drawing plans Not simple cad line sketches

Good points Michael. I am honestly more interested in part files or outline files anyway, not full drawing plans. Most people with cad skills want to draw their own stuff anyway. The fact of the matter is though that anyone can buy the plans here in hard copy, site down and re-draw them out and sell them as their own.

Ok, so don't offer any of the 7 existing plans in cad format, but maybe the outlines can be offered.

Can't cad files be locked like word documents or excell files?

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod I don't even want to think such.

OK how do we do this in a way that allows me to offer my work in a way to benefit the forum and at the same time protect my intellectual rights to the plans I donate? The way I see it if I provide my plans in a editable cad format I am not just providing my work for the benefit to those that want to use them to build a guitar from but also set myself up for being plagiarized by someone that attempts to take my work, edit it and distribute it elsewhere on the net or wherever for profit. you cant reasoably prevent that in a dwg format. So for me providing fixture or guitar drawings is out of the question. Now that is not to say simple line drawings would not be ok but i think unless full plans are at the heart this to is likely to go nowhere that truly benifits the forum. It may be benificial to individual members from time to time

It sad to know the value of the work I have given is really of only limited value. But apparently your right.

Yes someone can take a hard copy and spend the time redrawing it but those that would plagiarize will seldom spent the time to do such. If they can't easily electronically steal it or digitize it they want often mess with it.

The original file can be lock but all it takes is to copy or insert the initials of the original file into a newly opened file or save as by a new name and then you have a new file that you can do anything you wan to with.


I will not address the use of profile of my fixtures, SJ or MJ other than to say there is disclaimer on the drawing stating that all parts of the drawing are the intellectual property of myself and the OLF and any reproduction or use not authorized by the OLF or myself is prohibited. I don't mean that in the sense no you can't use it. but rather the use of the info on those drawings were made available as a gift to the forum for the financial benefit of the forum. I would have to give careful consideration before allowing any part of those drawings to be used other than for the financial support of the forum which was the original intent of my donations. These two body shapes I designed for my guitar business but later decided to offer the forum the plans to sell solely to help financially support the forum. any use out side of that is outside of my reason for the donation.

You're so right Michael, you'd most certainly be opening yourself up to be plagerized so maybe it would be best to not include the existing files in any new library. I don't want it to seem like there's no value to your hard work, there is. You've done a great service in providing your plans. I'd love to know how many plans have been purchased over the last several years. Chin up Michael, it's a small market the guitar making world. I suspect Pro's don't need your plans and it's us hobby folks who find value in them, and remember, there are most probably more hobby builders out there now days than there are pro's Most hobby folks spend their hard earned cash from the day job buying tools, jigs and plans so they can spend their time buildig guitars (sounds like it should be the other way round though) so I don't think your efforts are in vain at all.

I think simple line drawings will possibly draw those who like to make their own plans or sketches (that's what I do in cad really with basic dimensions) in cad here and the overall value to the forum is posibly greater than the sale of one set of plans. It's kind of like the all inclusive resort. If it's offered some people will utilize it. You pay for for the feature and although you may not partake, it's nice to know that it's there. I don't know if I'm explaining myself very well here.

I guess the hope is that the more stuff offered will increase the traffic which should increase the subscriptions which should increase the sponsor sales which should all increase the overall benefits to the forum.

Let's not loose the current library, lets open it up to other cad files (leaving the existing plans as hard copy only, maybe adding a simple line drawing of the outlines of the OLF SJ, OM, D and AJ for a smaller fee say $1 or something) and maybe that will add some more value to the OLF.

There are so many places out there right now which offer free cad files (not plans mind you that's different) that it would be a shame for us to loose traffic because we don't have something similar.

I think it could be a win win really. Protect the herritage of your total designs and still offer them in hard copy, AND open the library/store up to new cad files for download for a small fee. There will always be people who want a hard copy of the plan to work from and many won't have access to cad software, the willingness to learn it or the ability to print it even if it were available in digital form.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

The important thing to me on the donations I made is that no matter the use the forum finical benefits from them. that was the reason for the donation. so I could accept body profile and side profiles being made available at small profit for the forum. Rod I know you do but any chance others don't know, I do not make a penny on the sell of any of my plans sold here at the forum and they are available nowhere else.

Now maybe we can take tonight's discussion and find a good workable idea down the road.

Sorry if i got to any of you during this debate but coming from a previous experience that was very similar to what we have discussed here tonight I could not keep from making my point of view known. Once again i was listening and understanding everyone point of view. But i knew I was going to be a lone voice here so I had to stand and speak loud.

Goodnight Boys and girls

Say it loud and say it proud, Michael No hurt feelings or egos, here.

I just hate to see a precedent set where Lance and Brock need to collect a toll at every turn, and they've never said they want to. I think the voluntary subscription and advertiser supported format must work out pretty well to support the forum or they wouldn't do it that way. It's not a charity, and they gain a lot from all of our time and efforts to share info with each other, whether it's in text, pictures, or video form. CAD should be no different, it's just a different medium.

OK, let's see how many different ways we can all repeat the same things said in different ways.

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

This was a very interesting discussion. It was also handled in an exemplary manner by all involved. Everyone manned up when they felt they had stepped on toes, everyone kept an even keel, and the discussion was lively with disagreements at several levels. It never got personal, and the subject was vetted with good points made by all. I am a proud OLF'r! No one is leaving!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I think by now we all understand the views on the current library and where everyone stands. I think enough has been said on both sides to make the issues understood.

A question for Michael.....(I understand you have invested lots of time in the current library and have seen previous situations similar to this so I am asking you this question for a reason). So lets look forward...say 6 months down the road.

Michael, if you had to change the current library to best fit everything that has been said in this thread what would you do to keep everything as win-win as possible?

This is a "What if" scenario so not changing anything is not an option . I asked the question...I set the rules.

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Brad
Avon, OH

At least for me, as a professional, I don't have much use for full plans in CAD form (well, in that they won't help me -that- much); but having a nice CAD library of body shapes (top outlines) would be extremely handy.

As you might expect, given my business, I have a pretty large library of CAD drawings (nearly all full 3D) of guitar bodies, necks, bridges, etc. A lot of them are proprietary, but I have a few which aren't my or my customers' designs which I'll post if we get an area up for it. I drew up the body (in 3D with domed back and profiled sides) as well as the sides 'flattened' for my OOO, so that one'll go up when we have a place for it. I am totally uninterested in having that area be by payment, though, and will not post any of my work here if it's to be resold.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I don't know of a way to provide a free cad file exchange that does not open up to some issues plagiarism for someone.

One real issue not addressed here is to offer up an exchange library requires time labor and band width. None of those entities come free without some form of altruism. with that said we would need either a sponsor to steep forward to or have a subscription to finance the administration and bandwidth of such an exchange library.

One other thought of mine is how useful will this actually become. How many of our membership use cad? My guess is there are maybe 10 of the regulars and maybe 10 more of the total membership. I am not trying to knock the idea but we will need to ask our self if the expense and labor of operating the exchange is really worth it. It very well may be. But I have some doubt.

That said, knowing the interest of those of us that do use cad, I will pledge to help the best I can to provide my insight on where the + and - lie.

I still think it is in the interest of the forum for those of us that have plan set of interest to offer them to the forum for free and allow the forum to distribute them to the open public at cost of printing and mailing and a small percentage to help finance the operation of the forum. This what the Library of Plans was conceived as. Yes there has been hiccup in the operation of the library that have lead to the lack of interest in the offering. I can't count the PMs and emails I have received asking me if I could supply copies of plans to members and guests because the Forum was weeks and months getting them to paid customers. This has been a real issue that I have no say or control on. I was under the impression all that had been resolved. with the new printer. but I am not sure.

There are several places on the net for electric guitar builders to share their creations in CAD format. It is odd that most of these guys seem thrilled to share their body styles and neck designes with others. I have downloaded some of these files myself and will hold onto them in case I want to build an electric at some pint form a good piece of wood I may run across.

On the other hand, there is virtually NOTHING on the net for acoustic builders. I dont know if most people that are into CAD just build electrics or if there is some reason that acoustic builders dont share their files openly. I certainly would share what I have, which is very little, but would share it openly.

I am terrible at starting from scratch with CAD and coming up with something that I like. On the other hand, I find it pretty easy to take a general CAD file and modify it so that it fits my needs and desires.

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Reguards,

Ken H