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I noticed another useful thread relating to reactions to wood, specifically Pau Ferro. I just wanted to send out a note discussing this as well as other types of hazards in the workshop.
I am a family physician, so I deal with reactions in the office every so often, plus I have to keep up with the literature.
The first issue is to discuss contact dermatitis. Cocobolo is the most notorious of these. Pau Ferro was recently mentioned. Basically any type of wood has potential. The more oily or resinous, the more problematic. It can be quite variable: I can mess with Cocobolo or even poison ivy and not have any problems. Pine tar and bark, on the other hand, can cause me trouble. This is basically a reaction of the skin to a chemical. Metals and solvents can do it, too. Nickel is something that may be found in the shop and can cause a reaction. Basically you get the same kind of reaction as poison ivy. It can be an intensely itchy rash that will last 2 to 3 weeks, with redness and blisters. Steroids either by mouth or in a cream may need to be prescribed. Antihistamines don't speed up the rash resolution, but may help the itching. Remember that a driver taking benedryl is as impaired as a driver who drank a beer; the same applies when you are operating that bandsaw!
If you are exposed to one of these things, you do have a little leeway. If you wash up with soapy water or a detergent within an hour or so, you may be spared some or all of the reaction. The sooner the better! The woods we react to have oils that are the problem; a simple wash with water won't suffice. Clothes can also be a problem. If you forget about the Cocobolo dust on your jeans and continue to wear them, that dust can get on your hands and skin and sneak up on you. Be really careful to avoid wiping your eyes or face. This is another reason why safety glasses are a good idea. It's one thing to have dust in your eye, another thing altogether to have a poison ivy type rash in your eye!
The next problem pertains to respiratory issues. I cannot recommend a good respirator enough. An efficient dust collection system would also be a huge plus. Western Red Cedar produces a very fine dust when milled. Inhaled, it can trigger asthma and asthma like attacks. I imagine you could have quite a disaster if you already have a sensitivity to cocobolo and inhale the dust. I'm sure any fine dust can be a problem. Any particles in the air can cause lower respiratory problems. Sometimes molds and fungus can be in our shops; take special care if you're dealing with wood that got damp (ie: for non guitar projects-I know none of us would ever mistreat our precious Zoot!) or if are processing raw logs. Fungus spores in the lung can cause infection as well as severe lung reactions.
I have a patient who is an avid woodworker, and he has developed chronic lung problems from chronic dust exposure. It can cause scarring and mess up the bronchial passages. Once you get scarring and tissue damage, we cannot fix the coughing and shortness of breath so well.
I hope this is useful and that I haven't bored you to death. If any health questions come up, whether related to this or otherwise, please feel free to ask.

Thanks for information, Craig. Very valuable, could save some of us some serious grief.

I wonder if there's a connection between the toxicity of imported tropical woods and the environments in which they grow. I've been in a few rain forests that just hummed with insect life. Seems like plants that are edible for bugs and fungi would need nasty stuff for their defense.

I do have a question about filters in our shops. Most manufacturers of filter media mention specs such as, "90% of particles down to .5 microns." How do our lungs deal with particles smaller than that? Are those particles a problem too? Would a good respirator take care of it?

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Great information Craig. Now that the OLF has a more permanent section for posts, something like this should be in the tutorial section - maybe even linked to a listing of woods likely to cause reactions.

Thank you for this information. I have developed allergies to my daytime job 4 years ago. To anyone that had the fun of a patch test I hit on 23 of 103 patches. Since that happened I upgraded my dust system and air filtration. This is something that can hit you without warning and be very problematic. I can't cure my allergies but the investments help me control them.
john hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I don't have a dust collection system in my workshop due to the risk factor of investing a lot of money in a hobby I wasn't sure I was going to stick at, so all the major sanding jobs are done outdoors. I don't mind whether it's hot or cold out there; as long as it isn't raining.

I will get a decent system one day, as I am pretty sure that instrument making is something I want to do for many, many years.

But for now I will rely on my trusty 1500 watt vac to draw the dust from my bandsaw, and open the windows to allow a steady stream of air through, only being REALLY serious about humidity control when there are those critical cross grain glueing jobs.

Thanks for posting Craig.

Since you asked, I do have some questions

But first, I totally agree with the respirator being worth the trouble. I have a nice mountain bike loop out my back door that I do quite often. It has become a reliable gauge of my respiratory health. I keep a fairly clean shop and have good dust collection and 2 air cleaners but if I work for a few hours without my respirator, I know it when I'm climbing the big hills.

But I've often wondered about the health effects of wearing a respirator all day. I keep one with just a hepa filter and one with a carbon filter for oranic vapors with a hepa on top. I end up wearing the carbon filter most because of all the glues and solvents. The effort to breath all day in that thing is noticeable. I've often wondered if adding that extra negative pressure all day has any implications for lung tissue. And I also assume I'm breathing in a certain amount of carbon particles. Ever come accross any studies related to long term respirator use?

Also, what's the difference, if any, between allergies and "sensitivities"? I'm curious because I have some occasional allergy issues in the shop that I take antihistimines for maybe once a month. But I know people with violent reactions to things I've heard called "sensitizers" (like lacquer or epoxy) that cause symptoms as extreme as caughing up blood. I really don't want to go down that road (another reason I wear a respirator) but I'm wondering if, like with anaphylactic reactions, other allergic reactions can turn violent with multiple exposures? In other words, should I be trying to avoid something altogether that causes a mild allergic reaction?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Since I am the one who got this all started, let me give you an update:

I went to the doctor this morning after yet another night of little sleep because of itching and burning and a sore mouth, tongue and throat and terribly swollen lips. The doctor was shocked that I knew exactly what I was allergic to and that I knew in advance what he was going to give me for it. He said it made his life easier when his patients were educated.

He gave me a 12 day course of pills to take, and believe it or not I started to get some relief after the first round of them. I still have a long way to go.

I ordered the new clearview 1800 dust collector system last night, and went to woodcraft and bought a delta whole shop air filtration system this afternoon. I also bought 40 feet of 6" PVC pipe and several boxes of fittings. The new downdraft sanding table is about half built.

It will be better when it is all done, but will take some work to get there.

as a PS to my last post:

My description of having big lips wasnt meant as a racial slur but merely a verbal description of just how big my lips are. I hope this didnt offend any as no intent to offend was there on my part. I am suffering for something I should have given more priority to. My reason for sharing any and all of this information with you is to keep someone else from going through the pain and suffering I am experiencing. I hope you take heed and make the necessary precautions before it is too late.

Thanks for reading

Ken

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Reguards,

Ken H

I was going to post this earlier, not necessarily after your update post Ken. I wrote this earlier in the day, so here it goes.

After reading Ken's thread on his Pau Ferro reaction as well as knowing the potential issues with other exotics and cedar dust, I'm honestly surprised at the number of people who don't have adequate dust collection. This is not meant to be hard on anyone but if you take it that way, maybe you'll do something about your dust collection. Sam's idea of sanding outside is better than inside of course as inside the particles that we can't see are the ones that our own internal dust collection (nose hairs) don't collect and these are the ones that will effect our respiratory systems which who really knows how far down the rabbit hole it can lead (cancer maybe).

Admittedly, I didn't have great dust control up until last year, but when ever I did sanding, routing or cutting I would wear my respirator. Although I didn't wear it after I was done sanding but that didn't and doesn't keep us out of harms way as the airborne particles seem to float in the air for hours which means they are part of the air we are breathing. So this past year I made an air cleaner from a recycled furnace blower. I bought a proper filter which is designed for the Lee Valley air cleaner and made my air cleaner based on that filter plus an initial pre-filter which is just a furnace filter.

Even decent dust control is not expensive, my total dust control system cost me about $300 max and I know it's not the best but it actually is very good, my air quality in my shop is good due to the air cleaner cleaning the air about 40x's per hour (remember, I have a 185 sft shop, not hard to clean the air) and I just let it run the entire time I'm in the shop. After the lights go on, it's the next tool that gets turned on and I don't turn it off till just before shutting off the lights.

Please please please, I want to be talking with you all for a very long time. Please do something about your dust control, even if it's buying yourself a respirator and wearing it while working in the shop. Don't wait till you or your loved one comes down with a nasty reaction, by than, you've filled your body with stuff that will most likely reduce the time you have left to live.

I say all this out of love, not from being nasty.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

The term allergy implies that the immune system has been activated. Common symptoms are bronchospasm (wheezing), hives, sneezing and angioedema (facial swelling).
There are several types of allergic reactions involving different immunoglobulins and pathways. In some cases the immune system does not react upon initial exposure but "arms itself" should the offending substance again be encountered at which time the unlucky luthier may find his/herself rather distressed.

Sensitivities are basically irritants., such as superglue fumes causing one's eyes to burn and sting. The immune system stays uninvolved.

Bottom line is to keep as much dust out of your respiratory tract and off your clothes as is possible. Woodworkers are at risk for respiratory tract malignancies, especially nose and throat, which makes it even a little more scarey.

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It's not the miles ahead, it's the stone in your shoe


In Markham,Virginia

I have also thought about the effects that the small particles of wood dust, or micro dust has on the lungs myself and would it cause a condition similar to Byssinosis after prolonged exposure. (Byssinosis is a chronic, asthma-like narrowing of the airways. Also called brown lung disease)

I have a pretty busy day ahead, so I will respond a bit piecemeal.
As far as particle size goes, your nose picks up dusts that are over 10 micrometers in diameter. Particles less than 0.5 micrometers can get all the way down in the alveoli, which are the air filled sacks that actually get oxygen into the blood. Stuff from 0.5 to 3 micrometers get down in the bronchioles. Practically speaking, this is the size stuff that we have to worry the most about. The "big stuff" that is 10 + micrometers may irritate the sinuses and cause stuffiness, but is not going to make it likely to cause difficulties in the chest. You still may be miserable with sinus pressure and nasal stuffiness, though.
The bits that are 0.5 to 3 micrometers can cause inflammation in the lower breathing passages and give you bronchitis or asthma type reactions. We have these microscopic hairs in the bronchial passages that are called cilia. They actually move and help the crud come up from our chest. If a person smokes, these cilia dont work, and the debris stays down there. This is why when a person quits smoking they may cough worse for a couple of months. The cilia are recovering and getting the backlog of junk up and out of the chest. Thus, a smoker is going to be at a particular disadvantage if they inhale wood dust.
As far as the pressure involved with using a respirator, I don't think it should be a problem. We use all sorts of devices in medicine that adjust the pressure involved with breathing. If anyone has sleep apnea and uses a CPAP or a BiPAP device, they experience a change with pressures in the chest from "normal". They can use these devices for years and have no problems. Certainly the risk of chronic lung disease from not using a respirator outweighs any risk of the respirator causing trouble.
Oh well, gotta go. I'll check back in later...

Good stuff!

Zootman Bob, you reading this? If we bug ya to quit smoking, it's because we care. If you need another reason, read the above again. If you need help or tips, just ask; I was a 3-4 cigarette per hour man 15 years ago, myself. It can be done...

I'm with Grumpy. I was a 3 - 4 pack a day guy until 1986. I was having a bad night, coughing, etc. Looked at my wife and said this is my last cigarette, and put it out in the ash tray. I have never looked back, or fallen off that wagon. It was not easy, but I just had to make up my mind that I was no longer a smoker. I wish I had that will-power in some other things in my life, but that's another story. After quitting, though, my sensitivities were highly increased, and I found I was allergic to lots of stuff that never bothered me before. I am now an "under control asthma patient", and glad for the control. It is one of the reasons I have not turned to sanding to thickness tops, backs and sides. The less sanding the better as far as I'm concerned. When I do, I make sure I'm getting the dust with my vacuum, and wear a mask. Most of my sanding is thicknessing veneer for purfling, or quick touch-ups of edges on a 4x6 belt/disc sander, both of which I have rigged for collection.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

For someone who is getting set up to make a few instruments this is a great thread! Scary, yet very informative. I think our male machisemo(sp?) can use a dose of reallity here and we all should prepare our shops to do a better job of dust collection, dust avoidance and overall, less exposure to these substances.

That being said, the proper PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) is an absolute necessity. Period!

If we are properly prepared and outfitted we can control the exposure and continue to use the great lookin' zoot.

Thanks to the Docs for contributing their expertise.

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Steve Walden
Aspiring Builder,
Bartlesville, OK

Folks, i think it's fair to say that if you're going to make one or two instruments in a lifetime and walk away from woodworking afterward, there's no need to spend a small fortune on dust collection and air cleaning et al. You have minimal exposure if you use just a bit of common sense(though I admit that seems lacking everywhere these days); enjoy the journey.

It's the rest of us who are at risk and need to re-think our exposure levels.

The new clearvue CV1800 cyclone came in today and I got it assembled, hung on the wall and mostly ready to run except for wiring it up and hanging the post filters.




I also got most of the new 6" dust work hung up in the shop today, replacing the 4' that was in there. Also got the new Delta whole shop air filtration system hung in the ceiling.



Tomorrow I will work on hooking everything up and wiring up the cyclone. This time I am serious about dust collection!

My face looks like I have a bad sunburn, but most of the itching has gone now. My lips are normal size again and my throat has quit hurting. I truely hope none of the rest of you have to go through what I have been through in the last week.

Take it serious!

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Reguards,

Ken H

Thanks Dr. CraigL, we can't hear this often enough. Are you building? Pics?

Ken, wow, you jumped way ahead of me. My Cyclone is still laying around in the floor and me cutting up Walnut with my Bagger still. I'll catch up though. The Bullion sale is over, yes. (a little promise I made to a friend 22 years ago)

Grumpy and Waddy, you bet, I kicked the habit too on June 26, 1976. I cannot imagine woodworking and smoking. My grandpa died young due to smoking, cigarettes and a pipe. He was only 81. He wasn't a woodworker though!

Again thank you Doc for sharing this important info. Bill Pentz and Ed Morgano are in the fight too to clear the air!

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

My grandpa died young due to smoking, cigarettes and a pipe. He was only 81.



That's one of the most ridiculous comments anyone ever makes.

81 is only old if you're 9. But to a 79 year old, 81 isn't that far off, and doesn't seem that old. My father-in-law is 83, and he's busier than busy(just bought a new house and is moving himself, his wife and mother in law from Florida to NC this spring!), he's got 3 older brother, still living, and all still very active and happy and healthy. An 81 year old's death to him, would be a tragic young man's passing. And his mother-in-law lives with he and his wife, and she turns 100 this year! I swear I'm not making this up.

So, don't look at your Grandpa has having lived a long life despite smoking, consider how much longer he may have been around, and how much better his quality of life may have been without the undeniable health issues...

I'm really happy with all the dialogue this has created. Thanks for the response. I really liked the dust collection system.
Just to go a little further, people have asked to get a few more details on what is going on with allergies. There are 4 main types of allergies, but really two are most important to us in the woodworking world. The first that I'll mention is what most of us think of as "allergies".
When we get exposed to something allergenic for the first time, our immune system gets the chance to recognize it and decide if it's a big deal or not. The type of allergen can be almost anything...cat dander, ragweed, cedar dust, mold, dust mites, cockroach feces (ick!) and so on. The immune cells (basically one of the types of white blood cells we all have) can decide that the substance is ok or not. That is why cats don't bother me, but my sister in law sneezes constantly around them. Her immune system decided cat dander was bad, and created a type of immune globulin that when exposed to cat dander produces a reaction with histamine. Histamine is about the itchiest substance known. It causes blood vessels to dilate and get leaky. Thus, your nose swells up and drips and your eyes look red and puffy with allergies. If that histamine is released in the skin, you get hives-the itchy red puffy marks that go with really bad allergic reactions. These usually are seen in bee sting or peanut allergies, or to latex. Anything can do it, these are just the most famous. If this kind of stuff happens in your lungs, then you get wheezy and short of breath. Basically an asthma attack. That is why you occasionally hear about the poor soul who died from eating shellfish or peanuts. The lung passages get so swollen shut and full of fluid that they couldn't get oxygen.
This kind of reaction is typically going to be seen with things you inhale or eat. Skin contact with a solid oject doesn't typically do it. I wish I could list all the things that can do this, but the list is practically endless. It boils down to what your immune system decided on as much as the actual substance. When an allergist tests for these responses, they will usually inject a minute amount into the skin and look for hives. The amount used is really REALLY low; they really don't like it when somebody asphyxiates in the office from an allergic reaction. Bad for business, you see.
Antihistamines work by preventing histamine from being released. Once the allergy strikes, then the histamine is already out causing trouble. They don't work so well after the fact. They are better as preventives. If you are allergic to ragweed, start taking your claritin or whatever a week before ragweed season. You'll do better, because you prevent the histamine in the first place. I know it's off topic, but I find this really useful to tell people. Think of environmental allergens in terms of holidays. This primarily applies to the midwest, but other places are pertinent.
Easter: Tree pollen
Memorial Day: Grass pollen
Labor Day:Ragweed
Halloween:Mold.
If you have trouble during a particular time of year, start taking an antihistamine before that holiday arrives! You'll do better. You also get an idea of what it is that gets you.
The other common reaction we can get is related not to immune globulin but to the white blood cells. The cells basically decide that a substance is the enemy and try to kill it. Not really helpful if that substance is already dead, like poison ivy sap. (Poison ivy is of course the prototype of this reaction) So much inflammation and damage are produced that the skin blisters and gets raw. Nickel does it, so does cocobolo and Pau Ferro. Notice that histamine and immune globulins are not big players here. That is why antihistamines don't work so well for this type. They don't help the itching from this type. They may make you sleepy and you'll sleep better because of sedation, but you still will itch. Steroids creams may work in mild reactions, but big time reactions won't budge unless you use prednisone pills or a steroid shot (NOT the kind of steroids that make you buff and build muscle! You won't be taken to a Congressional hearing over these!) Left to it's own, this kind of reaction usually lasts two to three weeks. Ugh!
You can get allergy shots to make the first type of reactions (the ones with histamine) improve or hopefully go away. Sometimes it doesn't work, though. You cannot get allergy shot for the other type.
As for me and my building, I'm gearing up to make a baritone steel string with Palo Escrito and Cedar that I bought at last summer's ASIA convention. I've made a steel string with Oregon Myrtle and Sitka with a Coco fretboard as well as a classical with Claro Walnut and Curly Redwood. I'd love to post pics, but my internet access is through work and I haven't figured out how to get the system here to work it. I cannot say enough about Myrtle. Just love the stuff in terms of tone and workability.

I'm totally excited about signing up to take a inlay and engraving course this fall with Grit Laskin! I saw it listed in the Acoustic Guitar Mag this month under the article on summer courses. Maybe some other folks on the OLF may attend. I've done some inlay work, but am eager to learn more. Engraving really intrigues me.

I also quit smoking but one thing I am in total agreement to is DUST CONTROL. I use a 3 HP cyclone dust system that uses a 5 micron filter. I am upgrading to a 2 micron. I can tell when I am in the dust too long and with the woods I use plus I process alot of plywood.
I also incorporated an air filter that will handle 20000 cu ft an hour. It is better to be safe than sorry; but there is a benifit to this besides the health issue and that is I can see by how much dust is laying on things.
It is a small investment when you think about it. I am ready to retire and I want to be in the shop not the doc;s office
john hall

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it