Official Luthiers Forum!

Now before anyone says anything I've already given it lots of blue pills. No luck.

As I just posted, I'm mostly done with my first build and absolutely love it. The one concern I have about it is the bass. I'm having trouble describing it to people -- it has a good strong tone, but the low E is missing something. The best word I can think of is "punch." It's just kind of soft. Almost a gentle sound. (And truth be told, it's kind of growing on me. Maybe I'll be asking the reverse question in a couple of months.) I mentioned in my previous post that I ended up with a very thin top. Maybe that's part of it. I'm meeting with Robbie to check over the setup, so we'll see what comes up there.

So my question. If you wanted to make sure a guitar had good "punch" to the low notes, is there anything in particular you'd keep in mind when designing and building? I know I asked before about how all those braces work and I understand that nothing is that clear or simple to actually be explained. But I'd love to hear what kind of thoughts go through your heads when faced with a voicing request.

Thanks,
Meik

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Mike Lindstrom

Begin by playing the crap out of it for a few weeks, and don't be gentle. You need to wake it up before you judge it. The bottom end is most often the last part to chine-in...

Other than that, it could be one of 1,000,000 possible scenarios <g> That is why we can never build just one...

Thanks Grumpy! I that's good to know. I will of course keep playing it. It is sounding better every day.

My question though is more about planning the next one. I figure with so many variables, trying to track down a small problem in the completed guitar is pointless. I know I used the term "voicing," and I guess that's part of it, but it's not really what I meant. I'm wondering about general broad ideas. Body type. Size. Depth. Maybe I don't enough to know what I'm wondering. Why did I build an OM? Because that's the shape of the forms we had in class. Why would I choose an OM v. a Dred or an SJ? I have no idea. Maybe I need to know more about guitars, before I start wondering about the particulars of building. Can anyone point me towards that sort of book? If you can send me back to high school and college where I can spend years worrying about guitars, instead of whatever else I wasted my time on, that'd work too.

I know half of you are saying to yourself, "Why don't these new guys get it? There's no real answer. If there were, factories would make awesome guitars by the thousands!" Sorry.

Thanks,
Miek

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Mike Lindstrom

Don't seek the magic pill. It doesn't exist...

Look at the whole of it. Look at where it's lacking, and where it it shines! Then work everything towards the goal of helping the weakness, while keeping the strengths in mind, so as to not diminish those.

The answer will be in the details. Not one detail, but dozens.

a few things come to mind ( with my limited experience) is it all the bass notes that are weak ? is it just the low e note, or all the notes on that string ? does it occur on the twelth fret of the low e ( depressed or harmonic )? try the e note on the d string , same problem ? high e string ? Jody

Indeed it could be a million things, but since that just happened to me, I'll let you know how I fixed it. It was simply some wood dust left under the saddle! Obviously I didn't clean the bridge slot toroughly. After I did that, it was a new guitar! Lots of punch on the low E and A strings, exactly where it didn't have any before.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

I've been trying to follow Grumpy's advice, but I'll take a few minutes off to rest my fingers and give it a more thorough study. I'll post back later this evening. I'll pull the saddle and check it out too.

Thanks for the ideas,

Miek

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Mike Lindstrom

All right. So the string sounded a little dead all the way up to 12. The harmonic is also weak. Dies away pretty quickly. The E on the A string still sounds dead, but from the D on, it's much better.

I pulled the saddle and found a tiny bit of something white in there. Probably much more significantly, I learned the bottom of the saddle was not quite square. (in the direction that if it sat square on the base of the slot it would lean back away from the neck) I squared it up. It definitely helped. Still soft on the higher frets.

I'll let it settle in a couple of weeks and get back to you all. Doesn't seem to have been enough to measurably change action or intonation.

Thanks again. You guys are great!

Miek

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Mike Lindstrom

Well, I'm glad you were able to make it sound better!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Sometimes you just have a dead string. I've seen E strings come out of the package dead.
The more likely explanation is that because this is your first guitar, you have no idea how to make a top (voice) to give it more bass. Your top is very likely over built.
To get bass, you need a top that moves - the whole thing needs to move. You need to build and voice the top so that it has good movement. The trick is to not build it too weak so that you have great bass and have to replace the top in a few months. Build some more, you'll get it.
BTW - I'm replacing a top right now. I figure building guitars is like snow skiing. If you don't fall, you are not pushing hard enough and you are not learning anything. I think we are too afraid to fail with our guitars. Of course you don't want to experiment too much for a client, but you first 10 - 20 guitars are all about learning.
Go make so mistakes, push the limit, and learn how to repair them. You'll be a better builder for it.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I agree with Steve's point on pushing it to the limit. You don't know where the limit is until you go past it.

It's common for braces to get shaved in the quest for more bass, but I've seen some tops that where they wen too far, resulting in a floppy top that can't resist the pull of the strings. Sometimes a floppy top is so weak that it pulls up behind the bridge, or sinks in front of the bridge or both. This deformation may happen quickly, or may take some time, perhaps months or more. Sometimes a top is floppy enough that you get muddy, dead-sounding bass and weak trebles without the deformation.

Some of us think one way to get more bass response is to loosen up the back, making it loose enough that it resonates about a half-step above the top's resonance. This allows the back to contribute to the top's output, especially in the lower pitches. Others of us believe that back should be stiff. Depends on what you want out of the guitar.

Maybe the bridge is too heavy, bracing too wide, too tall, bridge plate too thick, too big, etc. If you have a light bridge, you might get less bass, but maybe not, if the weights of other top bracing, such as the bridge plate, make up for it. It's all a balancing act.

These are just a few of the zillion things that could make a difference. Or not.

This being your first, the main thing is you got it put together, it plays, probably sounds and looks pretty good. You already know some of its shortcomings. That is a good thing. Opportunities for improvement will appear the longer you play it, the more you tweak it.

I finished my first three years ago. I was really pleased with it. But after a few weeks, I realized its many shortcomings. Weak bass, muddy mids, fretwork only so-so, intonation off, lacking "presence". The tonal shortcomings improved a bit with time, but after a year, I started messing with it. Got the neck relief right, re-fretted, reset the neck, shaved the top braces, shaved the back braces. It doesn't look so good anymore, but it's twice the guitar it was when I first strung it up. Next, I'll probably pull the EIR bridge plate and put in osage orange or BRW. See what happens. Then maybe a lighter bridge or at least something besides ebony. This may never end, but by changing one thing at a time, I'm learning tons about what affects what. The ones I've built since are much improved because of what I learned from building the first one, but much more because of all the tweaking.

You're on your way, so just keep at it. The learning never stops.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

It's normal to get some bellying at the back of the bridge and some sinking in front after a while, though. Not getting it 'ever' would mean an overbraced top. Getting it after a few weeks would be a problem for sure; the belly would be so great the bridge wouldn't be able to hold on correctly.

Even my overbraced, overbuilt, too heavy 5 years old Takamine has a deformed top. It still sounds as bad as it did when I bought it!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Right you are, Alain. I should have clarified that. None is not so good. A little is good. Lots is bad.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Thanks for the input on bracing too. During the time the class was carving their braces, about the only thing Robbie ever said was, "Keep bringing them down. Bring them way down." I'll try to keep that in mind for my next one and shoot for even lighter bracing.

Miek

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Mike Lindstrom