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Hi folks,

Relative newbie here -- just two under my belt (kits), so please be kind .

The latest guitar I built has a lot of buzzing in the strings, to the point I can't isolate a singe fret or string. I think the main problem is that I didn't get the neck angle set properly, so there isn't much clearance under the strings to begin with. I have leveled the frets, but that didn't seem to help a whole lot. It seems my only option is a really tall saddle, which is a cheap option to try.

My main question is if there is anything I can do to make the guitar salvageable? It's basically unplayable right now. I just put in a new saddle without lowering it, and still lots of buzzing. I could get an extra tall saddle, but I'm searching for other solutions. Any other suggestions?

I posted a related question last fall, but was excoriated by a couple members for not learning the theory behind guitar harmonics before attempting to build one. I'm hopeful that someone can give me some friendly advice without questioning my knowledge of music theory .

Thanks!
Mark

Mark, here's a great opportunity for you to learn how to do a neck reset (on your brand new guitar). Take the neck off and set the angle right. You'll never fix it right without the neck angle set properly, everything else will just be the wrong way of fixing a problem that is set around your neck angle being wrong.

How is the neck attached? Dovetail, bolt on mortise and tenon, but joint? How is the fretboard end attached to the soundboard? Knowing these will give us information so we can help you detach the neck (if you need help with that, that is).

So, remove the neck and reset the angle. That's your best option. Might not be what you want to here, but that's really what you need to do.

When you remove the neck you'll need to remove material from the upper portion of the heel, than smooth it out so the heal bearing surface sits flat against the body.

Setting the neck can be a tedious task but it's one of the most important setups to make sure the guitar plays right.

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Mark,

Can you tell us what the string height (say, the low e) is above the top at the bridge and also at the twelfth fret.

How much neck relief do you have?

Is there a difference between fretted and open strings?

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You're right -- doing a neck reset is not what I really wanted to hear, but it's probably the best course.

The neck is a bolt-on neck. The fretboard was glued to the soundboard, so I obviously have a tricky joint to undo. Any idea how much material needs to be removed from the upper portion of the heel? Guess that's just something I'll have to play by ear.

I will have to get a ruler or something to measure the string height. The neck itself looks pretty straight, although if I place a ruler along the neck on the there is a slight bow around the 8th fret. And yes, there is a difference between fretted and open strings. Open strings don't buzz, but if I fret the strings, it buzzes in most of the upper frets across all strings.

First of let me assure you, your guitar is most certainly salvageable and will be playable if you correct your problems. And we can help you too.

Let me help you out a bit (which will help us out) with some definitions. Bow or back bow can be defined as follows. When the neck curves backward (toward the back of the neck) like this _---_ (bad way of drawing a curve) and relief is when the neck curves forward (with the string pressed on the 1st and 14th fret you have a gap between the bottom of the string and the top of the frets) like this -__- (another bad way of drawing a curve).

Here's a picture I found on the net which might help. A little crude but you get the idea.



When you put your ruler on the top of the frets which way does the neck bow and how much clearance is between the top of the fret and the underside of the ruler at the greatest amount?

Along with the neck reset, you may have to remove the frets and level the fretboard, re-fret and get the neck set right. I know this doesn't sound like a lot of fun but if you have a fretboard which isn't mostly level (you really want it dead level but there is some tolerance here) you'll always have some problems getting the guitar to play right.

What type of glue did you use to glue down the fretboard to the soundboard? Most glues you'd have used for gluing down the extension can be heated by using a cloths iron on top of the fretboard to heat the glue and slip a thin blade between the bottom of the fretboard extension and the soundboard. Here's where you'll learn your first repair job and it will come in handy down the road.

Take a look here at Frank Ford's web site on resetting the neck on a Martin guitar. This is the second page where Frank shows and describes how to soften the glue under the fretboard and loosen the fretboard extension. On a side note, take some time to read as much as you can on this website, you'll learn a ton

So you really need to assess your neck angle, levelness (is that a word) of the fretboard and get back to us. Don't worry though it's fixable

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Keep in mind that if a neck is overset, it is not so simple as resetting an underset neck. To drop the angle you either have to add material to the back side of the heel (not so easy to pull off aesthetically) or remove material from up at the fingerboard end. Doing the latter of course will move the entire fret board in toward the bridge. Coming in .020" or .030", and you may still be able to compensate at the saddle by reshaping it, though your 14th fret will move in over the body. Much more than that though, and you'll be looking at having to at least plug and recut or widen the saddle slot, or make a new bridge.

If the overset angle is minor, in can sometimes be better to pull the frets, re-level the board to affect a lower angle, and refret. Or if the bridge and saddle are low you can simply raise it there. It's all a big gray area though, and there are plenty of ways to approach it. There are a lot of variables that I can't know from your descriptions yet - when you say "bow" do you mean backbow or relief? If the neck were adjusted straight, how high above the top does the plane of the frets measure at the bridge? How tall is your bridge, and how tall is the saddle above the top? Do you have any measurements of action? Adjust the neck straight and get a measurement of the clearance between the top of the 12th fret and bottom of the strings. Try it with the string open, and also fretted at the first fret as I have a hunch that the nut slots may be high. Is there any significant fall away of the board at the body joint?

All of these things are what I would be looking at and considering in making choices on where to go next.

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Rod your drawings remind me of John Lennon's........... BTW that was a compliment........

Please forgive my artistic stills, but here is a crude drawing attempting to show what's going on with the neck of the guitar.

A ruler placed on the neck is flush with the first two frets, and then between frets 3 -14, there is a a bit of relief (not backbow). At most, it is not quite 1 mm. From the 14th fret to the end of the neck, the fretboard bows down, so the ruler is above those frets. See my pathetic drawing.

The glue I used on this guitar was Titebond. I understand that heating that to remove it shouldn't be rocket science. With the additional information just provided, does removing material at the top of the neck still sound like the right approach?

Mark,

If you have one mm of relief, that's a lot. You really want to get your frets as much in line as possible,
0.1 mm would be nice. If your ruler is long enough, can you lay it directly on the frets, and tell us the
height from the tip of the ruler to the top of the bridge? As stated above, there are a lot of ways to
approach this problem, and the more information you can give us, the better we're able to suggest
solutions.

Also, do you have a truss rod in the neck? If so, you should try adjusting the relief with the rod.

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Gene

Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason- Mark Twain

No, it's not 1mm of relief. I got out my spark plug feeler gauges, and at most it's about .013 inches. Doesn't sound like much, does it? I do not have a ruler long enough to go across the entire fretboard. My ruler is about 16". If I lay it on the fretboard so that one is even with the saddle slot, there is about 1/8" between the bottom of the ruler and the top of the bridge. This may not be entirely accurate because the ruler isn't as long as the fretboard, and I can rock it a little because of the relief.

Yes, I do have a truss rod. If I adjust the truss rod so that the relief is almost none, the buzzing is worse. If I add relief to the neck the buzzing gets better.

1mm (0.039") or 1/32" is a lot of relief I think most folks shoot for around 0.002-0.007" for relief. No wonder you have all the buzzing when your fret the string. Don't know if you'll be able to get rid of it by turning the truss rod (I kind of doubt it). That's a lot of stress on the rod and you most likely will strip it before you can get the neck to move that much. Besides this is not something that should be fixed by the truss rod. It should be fixed by correcting the bow in the neck and the fretboard.

Tell us Mark, is this measurement with the strings on or off? With the strings on (due to about 180lbs of pull) you'll have even more relief which won't help.

So your first issue is that the fretboard (and probably the neck too) is not level/flat and it has to much relief built into it. And before you can set the neck you need to get rid of this relief and get the fretboard plane level.

I'm hoping David, Mario, Rick and maybe some of the more experienced guys will chime in here, but I'll at least tell you what I would do. You sitting down? There are a couple of options to think about.

What is the thickness of the fretboard at the nut and at the 14th fret (at the highest point)? And do you know how deep the fret slots are? The quickest fix (might not be the best one though) would be to full all the frets and level the fretboard while it is attached to the neck. See you have to remove about 1mm (0.039") of material at the nut end and the 14th fret and working toward the 7/8th frets less in order to make the board level (this doesn't account for the neck though, which is why I say it's the quick fix but not the best fix). With the board level, you will still need to set the neck angle properly in order for the saddle height to be correct, but taking 1/32" or so off the fretboard might be enough to get your action workable (again not the best fix but something that will work).

The best fit (in my opinion) is to pull the neck off, pull the fretboard off the neck (pull the frets too) and make sure that the plane of the neck is dead level. Than make sure that the fretboard is dead level (or very close). After these two things are done, the easiest thing for you to do would be to glue the fretboard back onto the neck (use epoxy here as my suspicion is that titebond was used at first and the moisture in the glue caused the bow to begin with). Now that you have a level neck and a level fretboard you can set the neck angle properly. Once this is done attach the neck again. Once the neck is attached to the body, check the fretboard to make sure it's level once more, if it's not level it. Than install new frets. Check here for a good tutorial for these last couple steps. This is Tim McKnight's tutorial on fretting the board when it's attached the body.

You will now most likely have some back bow in the neck because of the frets pressure on the board, but it shouldn't be much.

As David mentioned, you'll have to check your saddle location to make sure you still have adequate compensation to set the intonation of the guitar. Check this now. Hopefully you're fine and you don't need to make the saddle slot bigger (although that's doable too).

Put some strings on the guitar and see if there is any back bow or relief. Hopefully the strings have pulled the neck forward enough to correct the back bow induced by the frets (as previously mentioned). If there is a lot of back bow or relief (0.010" or more) you'll want to level the frets. Take the strings off and level the frets so that they are level along the entire run of the fretboard (if they still drop off at the neck don't worry about the 15th-20th fret, you'll just take to much off the first 14). You'll want to re-crown and polish the frets now if you had to level them.

What type of truss rod is installed? If it's a two way like the Stew Mac hotrod you should be able to turn it a bit to get the relief set right. Fret a string at the 1st fret and the 14th and measure the gap with feeler gauges to see what you've got. Aim for 0.008" of relief and you'll be fine.

Now, I'd make a new nut and a new saddle and set up the guitar.

Someone please let me know if I'm out to lunch here with my advise to Mark. I know this sure can sound like a daunting task but hey, you've built a guitar (you're second now right) so this is just reversing some steps to correct some errors.

Last bit of advise, don't proceed onto the next step until you're sure the neck/fretboard are level, than that the neck angle is set right. You'll just have to repeat some of this is these things are not right.

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There's still not enough info to really give any reliable advise. Does the neck have a truss rod? If so, what you need to do is adjust it straight and give us some measurements as listed above. String clearance at the 12th, (measured open is usually what I refer to, but without knowing nut height it may be better measured with the string fretted at the 1st), and a straight edge against the flat board to give a height above the top at the bridge area. Bridge height, saddle height above the top, all these things would be more useful.

If it doesn't have a truss rod that's another story, but assuming it does, you need to straighten out your neck then bring some more measurements. A 16" straight edge should be enough to give us some useful idea if you are careful to keep the straight edge as flat as you can against the frets. So far, it does sound way overset, but straighten the neck, measure the string height as mentioned and we'll go from there. Bridge and saddle height would be good too.


Edit: I was posting the same time as Rod, so you're getting a lot of the same info twice.

Point is, you need to straighten the neck, and give us as much info and measurements as possible. Can't have too many measurements - if some of it isn't needed, we can pick through and use what is relevant.

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Wow, sorry I took so long to write that last post.

By turning the truss rod to eliminate the relief you're dropping the nut end (actually raising the middle of the neck/fretboard) which will of course make the strings buzz more. This is ok. What this tells us is that you don't have the neck set forward enough.

First thing you should do is get yourself a long enough straight edge, at least 26" long. Go to Home depot and buy yourself a piece of 1-1/2x1-1/2x1/4 aluminum angle iron (they should have that). Check each piece to see which one is the most flat. Heck grab on of the expensive levels and use that to check to make sure the angle iron is flat. That is good enough for a straight edge as long as it's flat.

As far as the neck set goes, if you've really got 1/8" between the underside of the straight edge and the top of the bridge with the straight edge sitting on top of the frets, your neck is set to far back. You really only want to just kiss the top of the bridge to a max of 1/16" gap.

You'll need to re-set the neck from the sounds of it. But I think you should be alright with the levelness of the neck. It's not perfect but it's acceptable for a second guitar.

Again after you reset the neck, check to make sure you have enough compensation at the saddle slot.

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Rod,

Thanks very much for the detailed advice and suggestions. It'll take a little time to read through them again to make sure I know exactly what needs to be done. It does sound very daunting, but probably a very good learning experience.

As I stated in a previous post, my relief is probably closer to .013 inches. This is with strings on, by the way. Still too much, but better than 1mm! The truss rod is a Martin truss rod (the kit was purchased from John Hall).

In the tutorial by Tim McKight that you pointed me to, he shows two files to dress the ends near the bottom of that page. Did he make those or are they available somewhere? I sure could use those!

Thanks again...looks like I have some work to do.

Well Mark, with the strings on having 0.013" of relief really isn't bad. So you just need to set the neck forward a bit more to get it playable.

Here are a couple of links to webpages detailing neck resets for you. The thing though with these neck resets is that they are removing material at the bottom of the heal to set the neck back. You need to remove material at the top of the heal to set the neck forward. It doesn't take much material removal to get you down 1/16" or more so go slow and check the set often.

http://www.mikelull.com/neckreset/neckreset.htm

http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/CollingsReset/collingsreset.html

any questions along the way, let us know.

I think Tim just made those blocks to hold the files for dressing fret ends. One has a 20 degree cut to set the angle to dress the fret ends. Another way to do this is to cut the slot for the file at an angle of 20+/- degree and insert the file. I just use a long, flat sanding block with 80 grit aluminum oxide cloth backed paper to dress the ends. Makes for a fast job after trimming the frets to the edge of the fretboard.

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There are a number of things that could be wrong and tools to identify each. As previously suggested you must have some sort of straight edge to determine the neck set by measuring at the bridge. Where a straight edge held on the frets lands on the bridge will tell the condition of the neck set.
If it is only a little high a thicker bridge is an acceptable (but not perfect) fix. Martin uses several thicknesses of bridges and also 3 different saddle heights. I have had to use a high saddle to make an early effort playable.

The other must have tools are a fret triangle to find a high fret and fret files to recrown after fret dressing.

Can you bring this one to John Halls for the get together? You can get lots of hands on help there.
If fact I took my first guitar there to get help with neck set from John (all the way from North Carolina!)

Steve

Part of the discussion in many of the replies has gotten me to thinking about leveling a fretboard. When should I level the fretboard? Should it be leveled after I get the fretboard attached to the neck, with the frets on, but not attached to the guitar, or after it's on the guitar and I have strings on it? This may be a very basic question to some, but it's got me a little confused.

Thanks again.

I think what you really need to do more than anything, is to sit down with either a pencil and paper, flexible stick and string, cutout neck/body/bridge/string templates, whatever way helps you visualize best, and play with the geometry of the neck relief, neck angle, bridge height, until you fully understand it. I really think this is the best way for a lot of people to better understand what's going on and make appropriate decisions. Play around with it on paper enough and it should all finally click, and suddenly all these questions you're asking may seem common sense. I don't believe in common sense of course, but once you get the geometry all this should seem as such.

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First off, I like David's suggestion. I work well in autocad, visualizing everything on a computer screen (being a mechanical draftsman for 8 years will do that for me). But lay it all out and you will be able to visualize the proceedure better.

There are three trains of thought (well maybe four) for when to level the fretboard, of which option D has been discussed here recently and has some controversy surrounding it

A: Shape and level the board after it is glued onto the neck blank ala Cumpiano & Natelson's book, install the frets, shape the neck (see below for internal wood stress'), finish the neck and body, attach the neck, level the frets (crown & polish). This might be the least common method for people who have built a few guitars. Wood has internal stress' which do funny things to the wood when you remove material. By shaping the neck after the board and frets are on/in, these internal stress' can change the geometry of the board leaving you to leveling again after the neck is shaped.

B: Level the board after it is glued onto the neck blank and the neck is shaped to 95%(+/-), install frets, finish shaping the neck, apply your finish to the neck and body, attach neck to body, level the frets as needed. With the neck blank shaped there should be no released stress' in the neck wood. Now you've installed the frets after the board is level, this can often induce some slight to moderate back bow into the neck assembly which will need to be leveled by either the pull of the strings, plus some action from the truss rod and leveling the frets.

C: Shape and level the board, glue onto the neck blank with the neck shaped to 95%(+/-), finish shaping the neck, apply your finish to the neck and body, attach the neck, level the board one final time than install the frets, level the frets as needed. This may be the most common way of doing the procedure. You get one final time to make sure the board is level before the frets go in. Once the frets are install, there again will most likely be some slight back bow induced by the frets pushing the fret slots apart. Again the frets will need to be leveled by either the pull of the strings, plus some action from the truss rod and leveling the frets. Some folks don't like this way as installing frets over the body can be intimidating.

D: Get the board and neck level before gluing to one another. shape the neck to 95%(+/-), install the frets on the board, ensure the board is dead level (like really dead level, see some of the discussions in the archives on this method), glue onto the neck (with some sort of dead level clamping caul over the board), finish the neck and body, attach the neck to the body, level the frets as needed. This method ensures that there are no internal stress' on any of the pieces. You've removed the majority of the wood from the neck, you've installed the frets and made sure the fretboard is dead level before gluing it onto the neck.

All of these methods will require you to set the neck angle at some point, either before the fretboard is glued on or after, you'll have to decide when, but I would suggest it be set primarily before the board is glued on but after the neck is mostly shaped. Once the board is on and the finish is done, you can check the neck set just before you attach the neck to the body.

The other issue in making your neck is the glue you choose. Many folks use a PVA glue like titebond or LMI white glue. These glues have water in them (although only a bit, water none the less). Water swells wood which can cause it to warp. It is becoming more common practice to glue the fretboard to the neck with epoxy (which doesn't have water in it) to eliminate the possible/probable swelling of the wood.

The controversy behind method "D" is that it's difficult to unsure everything is dead level before you glue the fretboard on to the neck. It's not impossible but difficult and will take some trial and error before getting it right.

You decide the best way to go. I think most would tell you to use option "C". Personally, I'm going to do my darnedest to make option "D" work for me.

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