Official Luthiers Forum!

Wasn't quite sure how to write the Subject, but here goes.....

I must have saw this bridge sometime in my life cause I'm sure it's not an original. Although I can't recall ever seeing it. You guys ever experment with this style of bridge or thought about it? I employed a Google search pero didn't find anything

I'm just wondering, if you could use a bridge as this, would it eliminate the use of a bridge plate? Would a guitar sound good without a bridgeplate? I'm just thinking in terms of a violin I guess. The less wood mass you have on the table the more it can vibrate.
A guy could make it work if it would help the guitar. Like to keep the strings from cracking the bridge, you could press in some small brass tubes in the rear so the ball will rest on that instead of the ebony.
Just a silly thought I guess. Here's the homemade drawings I promised.

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Hey Chuck.. thats very similar to the harmony sovereign guitars from the 1960's.. they have a good enough sound to make them collectable .. they were ladder braced I think .. I would think you still need a bridge plate to fight the pull on the top... I cannot look inside the one I own right now because my nephew has borrowed it .... Jody

You absolutely have to have a bridge plate - without one the bridge would probably rip itself off over time. However, you could you a spruce bridge plate instead of a hardwood because of the pinless design. That area just has to be made more structurally competent and be able to deal with the forces from the strings. I also believe that a cross-grain patch is superior to a parallel grain bridge plate. They alternate grain in plywood for a reason - it makes the "system" incredibly stable and strong.

Chuck,
Here's one very similar I've done on an experimental top. It seems to work just fine. Others use this style of bridge also.
I did use a bridge plate to help with the stress in that area, but this top is very very thin

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

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"After forty-nine years of violin building, I have decided that the search for a varnish is similar to the fox hunt. The fun is in the hunt."
Jack Batts Maker and Repairer of Fine Violins

Chuck, It's really hard for me to answer that as it's an experimental top, similar to a Smallman in the classical world. There's no room for pins under the top with out running into braces, so I did this.
If you try this you want to watch the position of the string winding to the saddle. It would be pretty easy to have the string winding end up on the saddle.

As a side note, I think these are pretty common.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Yes, very common type of bridge. I am in favor of these because I see a lot of guitars which have damage to the bridge plate/soundboard and/or cracked bridges from people not seating the ball-end strings properly.

Charles Fox makes a similar bridge, except it is slotted from the ball end to where the string exits the top of the briged rather than a drilled hole.

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John Ressler

a number of makers have used a pinless bridge qt times over the years, the biggest probably being ovation and taylor.

i agree with the opinion expressed above that a bridge plate could still be desirable; it is a brace as well as a bearing surface for string balls. however a conventional small transverse brace under the bridge would add greater stiffness, probably with less weight.

My personal opinion of Pin-less bridges are that they inherently have more rotation loading than a pinned bridge, because the balls have been move into a position that depreciates the stings rotational force less than a pin system. That said the have been used successfully but I have also see more pin-less like Ovations belly in the front side of the bridge and pull up at the rear than any other bridge style. I have often though that maybe a thin tall brace In line with the front of the bridge might help.

Hello:

Another Illinois boy. I'm from Meredosia, Illinois. Hey, this is the bridge that Ovation has used forever and very similar in regards to the string thru design I use. I use a paduk (sp?) bridge plate. I have so far only used ebony on the bridge and the wear n' tear of the string balls has been minimum in a year and a half. I'm going to try a brass insert at the ball location to see if there is any tone impact. Another note is that I have raised the saddle to adjust for the reduced string angle, which is a slight neck angle adjustment, as well.

Danny R. Little

The (really neat looking) bridge on Andy Zimmermans newest guitar (should still be on the front page) is my design, which is similar (slotted instead of drilled)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Very timely... I just started work on one of those yesterday. It's on a very short scaled kid sized guitar, so the string tensions will be lower. But I do have an old beat-to-heck Ovation, with a pinless bridge, and it is peeling up from the back!

(On a side note, the more I learn about guitars, the more I realize how poorly that Ovation was made. Can't wait to build it's replacement!)

Colin

I think slotting is the typical way to do it. Mine is slotted also here another photo showing the slots.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

The reason I chose the slots instead of holes (because I can machine pretty much anything I want with the Fadal) is that there's a possibility of different stiffness etc with various strings and with the holes they're most likely to bind on the top or bottom surface of the exit holes even with the most precise drilling. That would make a really short and...kink-prone...run of string behind the saddle.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Chuck…I have been wanting to do a pin-less design and one day I will but here are my thoughts on the subject.

I have been hesitant about doing it for two reasons.

First, all the sting tension is pulling on the bridge that is glued to the soundboard, so you will be depending on the glue joint not to fail over time. A traditional pin design puts much less stress on the glue joint because the strings are pulling the bridge down onto the soundboard. If the glue joint fails the strings won’t fly off the guitar. I suppose that you could use a couple of dowels between the bridge and the soundboard to add strength and I do realize that the sheer strength of the glue joint alone is incredible strong and the likely hood of failure is slim but it is still a potential problem.

Second, I dislike seeing the ball ends. It looks too much like an electric guitar. I guess I am just being a purist.

I suppose if I were to be a real purist I would use cat gut and tie the strings to the bridge like on a classical.

I know allot of people have been using it for quite some time with great success…I guess Time will tell.

P.S. Jim…I really like that bridge of yours.

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Rich S

"The inconvenience of poor quality will linger long after the thrill of a bargain has been forgotten"

I thought long and hard about doing bridge like the Elliot one. Mike Doolin has a nice article on how to them. I just didn't have enough room to get the string windings off of the saddle so I went the way I did. Perhaps it doesn't matter.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com