Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi folks,
I'd like to explore the idea of selling one of my guitars through one of the local guitar shops.
I've made a neck with friction pegs, but my house mate is suggesting that people might prefer geared tuners for convenience and for the look.
In fact the suggestion is that pegs look odd, and that people might avoid a guitar with pegs.
I'd rather not make another neck if i can avoid it.
I'm wondering what the players on the OLF prefer, and why?
Lastly what sells more on a flamenco: Pegs or tuners?

Cheers,
Claire

Claire, there is another alternative, planetary pegs. They look like wooden pegs but have a 4:1 ratio so they are a little easier to tune and they don't add as much weight as geared tuners do. Some flamenco players don't want sustain and the added weight of tuners gives you more. I don't know about retrofitting them but Brian Burns will at http://www.lessonsinlutherie.com.

_________________
Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

http://www.pegheds.com/

You might want to ask this question over at the GSI Forum, Tom Blackshear, a noted Flamenco builder, responds to posts over there and he might have some valuable observations on this subject
Having used pegs, I think most everyone would consider tuners an advantage (the charm of the pegs disappears as soon as you use them).
Also, If you have made your peghead thick enough, you should be able to convert it (drill and slot) for tuners?

Check these out. You can have the traditional look without the traditional headache. Never tried them though. You could be the first and tell us what you think of them.

http://www.pegheds.com/index.htm

I've retrofitted a set of pegheds(from Brian Burns) to my flamenco guitar. The owner was happy then. Although well-made pegs are not significantly harder to tune, but it still need some practice. Btw, installing a set of pegheds is easier than wooden pegs as long as you have the right drill bits.

Thanks folks,
I've never sold a guitar that I have made.
And I'd like to, but i think that I need to start at basics.
And I may not sell anything anyhow, so its a risky exploration.
My problem as an amatuer guitar maker is building the guitar on a budget, and trying to build the best guitar that I can for an affordable price without eating into my own profits, which will be slim in the first instance.
Taking into account the market, and that i'm an unknown maker.
A shop is probably going to have incentives to sell brand name instruments over mine.
I wrote away about pegheads once before and discovered that they were very expensive at that time, to the point of them being prohibitive.
I can build a guitar and put it up for sale on consignment, which is also going to eat into my profits.
I want to make 1k on a guitar.
I figure I'd have to get 2k for a guitar sale to make 1k profit on it.
It has good quality materials in it and i think 1k for my hand craft would be equitable.
And the shop is going to want to try and sell a case with it.
People are going to baulk at a price over 2.5 k if they have to put it in a case, so i need to find a way of producing an instrument that can be cased, and cover for consignment overheads for 2.5 k or under.

A well known dealer in Australa has urged me to make classicals and not flamencos because the market in Australia is biased against australian made flamencos, so it needs to come in at around 2.5 k total cost.
I already have the materials, and most of the parts for a flamenco, so I'm not going to be loosing anything more if i don't sell this one, but I don't want to spend any more than i have to.

I could put 2 thousand dollar replica machine heads on a guitar but I'll have to give the guitar away at a loss, which I'm not going to do.
100 dollar machine heads will do the same job as expensive ones, and I already have those parts.
Pegheads are going to eat into my budget also.

So my question is about trying to make an attractive product for sale at a price, with options that both myself and the customer are going to find attractive without ripping myself off.
If the customer wants to put pegheads, or expensive machines on it thats up to them, and they can accessorise later.
So the question is about basics:
Friction pegs or machine heads?
What are people most attracted to in a flamenco guitar, and what do folks think will sell best?
Lets consider look, weight, balance, conveinece, authenticity, etc.

Cheers,
Claire

Claire,

Your questions and connundrum are shared by many who make instruments and want to sell them. As such I don't think there are any magic bullet answers and all I can do is offer you some of my own views.

First you need to decide if you want to make/sell instruments as a business/living or just want to make them for love and where possible sell them to offset the cost of your love. The first one is a very tough road and you are going to have to work hard at ways of getting your instruments out into your "target" market so that potential customers become aware of your name and instruments - in early years this could mean taking very low prices just to get your instruments moving and create momentum. If the latter then then you have options such as E-bay and the retailer you have at the moment.

Either way if it were me there are two things that you need to establish and be true to. Firstly what sort of customers are you aiming at, and secondly what is your vision for the instruments you make - sorry vison is a bit corny but the best I can think of. By this I mean the sound, looks, aesthetics, playability - this would determine if you need friction pegs or tuners. If your ethos says friction pegs, then you will make the best ones that suit your design and playability standards and if the customer doesn't like them then so be it. If its tuners you will do the same thing. If your customer target are hard core flamenco players then friction pegs might be a necessity.

If you don't know your vision or target market clearly then you are going to be altering all sorts of things based on suggestions and hints from retailers etc that will cost you more money without any clear road or guarantee of success.

Hope this makes some sense and is of some help.

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Claire I've never made a flamenco guitar, but I do build lutes, which as you know always use pegs for tuning. A well made peg carefully fitted to the peghead is a joy to use and has my favourite tuning ration of 1:1! My classical guitar teacher, at the RCM also plays flamenco to a high standard. He uses Rogers tuners on his classical guitars and pegs on his flamenco.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Claire,

I'll add my two cents worth - I think the great majority of people prefer tuning machines. I personally love the look of pegs and played one for many years, but don't like the inconvenience. I know of some luthiers who has converted pegs to machines on finished guitars. I plan to build one with the geared pegheads referred to by others here.

Best of luck,
Max

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Max Bishop
Brighton, Michigan

Claire,
In terms of profitability I'd urge you to take a bit longer view, rather than an analysis based on a single guitar.
If this one is your first commercial venture you should put your best foot forward in terms of materials, fittings and of course quality of fit and finish.
A smaller margin on the first guitar may enable you to make a better initial presentatation and you can build up your price structure as folks become interested (hopefully) in your work.

I'm new at all this too, but it seems to me that Pegheads at $120 per set are about the same price or, in fact, cheaper than a moderately nice set of tuning heads (most decent ones in the 150 - 250 range in one-off purchaces). Otherwise, pegs are the cheapest way to go, if it is cheap that is the driving force. I would agree with some of the others, that taking the longer view might work to your benefit.

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

hi Claire,

I agree with what David LaPlante and Waddy have said. I'd also suggest that rather than trying to sell your guitar through a store, go through a local guitar society. Wanting to make 1k in profit is not at all unrealistic, even if a maker is unknown. Just about every classical or flamenco guitarist I have come across wouldn't hesitate to pay 2k for a good sounding, hand made guitar.

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Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

Claire;
If you look at my opening page from my site you'll see the "pegheds"
mentioned above!
I've been using them for 2 years now and the players & I could not be more pleased!!
They work-humidity does not affect them -nor does friction!!!!
They look totally like wood tuners!!-BUT WORK!!

www.pegheds.com
Best of luck to you lady!
Mike
www.collinsguitars.com

_________________
Mike Collins

Re selling:

IMO the way to sell flamencos is to connect with a teacher/player whose students rely on his or her (are there any female flamenco players?) judgment about what guitar to buy.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Charro!

_________________
Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

If you think that the guitar sounds good and the quality of workmanship is good enough to sell, than you should try to sell it the way that it is. I wouldn't modify the neck or even spend the money on Pegheds. Flamencos have a long tradition of using pegs and there are plenty of players out there who will like the guitar just the way that it is.

I know of one classical builder who worried that a position marker that he had installed would limit the instruments sellability. He removed the dot and carefully filled and refinished that portion of the neck. He sold the guitar soon after that and the first thing the buyer did was ask him to install a position dot. There's several hours of the builder life that he won't get back.

If you are worried about the marketability of the guitar, change the next one that you build.

I make classical and flamenco guitars in England and am often asked about pegs v tuners in fact a lot of guitars which I supply fitted with pegs are brought back after a while and the customer ask me to fit tuners basically because they dont get on with the pegs. The advantage of pegs is the balance of the guitar for the player especially flamenco where the body is normally very light (or it should be). I have also tried using the schaller "peg heds" which seem like a good alternative especially as they look like a peg and dont weigh much but I have found that these pegs have a habit of self destructing especially when used on the bass strings and they are very expensive.
I normally supply all my guitars to retailers(shops) fitted with tuners and only fit pegs by special request. I also fit the pegs in such a way that if the customer wants to have them replaced by tuners I can rout slots and no one can tell that pegs had been fitted. Good luck.

Claire,

All good advice so far!

My addition would be to build the guitars that you want to build. You will build a reputation for your work, and it will be your reputation that will sell your work. If you market classicals, then that is what people will come to expect of you. If what you want to build are Flamencos, then build Flamencos.

If you are not already familiar with it, here is a forum for Flamenco addicts:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/foroflamenco_home.asp

See what they think about tuning machines vs. pegs over there.

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Hi folks,
Thanks all for your thoughts.
Thanks, doug for the URL

Cheers,
Claire